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Comments of the week: Students grading their teachers

TripodProject.org

Should students have a say in how their teachers are evaluated? The question surfaced this week after the teachers union came out in staunch opposition to the idea as an evaluation measure. Department of Education officials say that they would eventually like to see it happen.

In comments and on Twitter, teachers reacted with a range of emotions.

One teacher, Mook, said the surveys would be a welcome measure if it meant less of an emphasis on test scores:

I would like to have the option of using student surveys as part of my evaluation.  Of course, I’d like to use it in place of whatever ridiculous measures of student progress we’ll eventually be forced to use.  Not only am I confident I would do well on the surveys, but they wouldn’t take an extra minute of my planning time.  No data collection, no seething about the lack of scientific rigor in the collection of the data.

But many teachers shared their union’s position on student feedback, which is that placing such a high-stakes decision into the hands of students was unreliable and could wrongly threaten their ratings.

“Seriously????” asked DisgustedNYCTeacher:

After 25 years of teaching, my professional future will d[e]pend on the evaluations of 13 year olds?  The same ones who can’t remember to bring a pen to school every day and forget their books in class?

A.S.Neill said that student feedback held promise and could be accurate, but was just too risky to be used for evaluations:

My anecdotal observation of students’ candid comments about teachers indicates that they often are remarkably accurate about some things. Ineffective teachers frequently are hostile to kids, oblivious to their concerns, or really are just plain ineffective. Cliques of students and their friends could easily manipulate evaluations as a retaliation for some fantasized abuse or perhaps just because a teacher is pushing too much “rigor”.they don’t like, etc. Since a well established principle of justice calls for protecting the innocent sometimes at the expense of letting the guilty go free, student evaluations is a poor idea and should be firmly rejected.

Not all readers saw the surveys as a threat though. Tim looked at it the other way around:

Could you imagine if you were a really highly rated teacher and your student surveys were off the charts, confirming that you are doing a whole lot of things right? Could you imagine if you were a teacher anywhere on the spectrum and you used your student surveys simply to hone your craft? Could you even imagine if you were a borderline ineffective teacher and your surveys — gasp! — pulled you over to the effective side?

Jessica Saratovsky, a teacher at The New American Academy in Crown Heights, sounded optimistic about the idea, but wondered if younger students were capable of responsibly handling the surveys.

  • Brooklyn Parent

    I teach in higher education and so am rated by my students each semester.  I have been teaching for 11 years and my evaluations have been fairly uniform with only a few exceptions.  My take on student evaluations is that they can provide helpful perspectives on how students are experiencing a class and as a teacher, it has been helpful to have that perspective.  However, it is certainly true that students can be harsh and give unjustifiably hostile evaluations.  Female professors and professors of color often are scrutinized more aggressively by students.  Some professors are “popular” for reasons that seem unrelated to effective pedagogy when contrasted to evaluations by peers.  By and large though, consistently negative evaluations reveal teachers who are unable to communicate material to students – regardless of their own mastery of the material,   Student evaluations are included in our tenure files and considered by tenure committees, but everyone who looks at them is mindful of their shortcomings.  As a parent of middle school students, I think that by 3rd or 4th grade, well-tailored student evaluations could give teachers some useful information about how students feel in their classrooms.  The main concern would be that such information be used for constructive purposes.  The “numbers” should never be mindlessly included in a formula for devising how effective a particular teacher is.

  • JACK

    HEY!  What a great idea!  Here’s the plan kids:
    NO HOMEWORK….EVER!
    EVERY FRIDAY IS MOVIE AND POPCORN DAY!
    AND HEY, JUST TELL ME WHAT GRADE YOU WANT AND IT IS DONE!

    Ahhhh, life just got easier, no longer do I have to listen to a bunch of dimwitted supervisors telling what to teach, how to teach, when to teach…….

    Frigging Ridiculous….like every other dumb idea coming down the pike these days…ideas all coming from people who….DON’T ACTUALLY TEACH!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/F4CP65SVUU5ZQWVKA2RUZ4ITCM Bronx Teacher

    I think it’s a great idea.  I’d stand around, tell lots of jokes, give no homework, teach just enough to make the kids think they’re learning, tell more jokes, show movies, and tell even more jokes.  The kids would love me, and I’d be an amazing teacher. 

  • Jay11

    The difference is that you teach college students (adults) who want to be there and pay for the priviledge of being there. 

    Many of us teach rooms full of young to very young students who are there regardless of their individual whims and interests, and who are young, immature and easily swayed by small things on a daily basis.  The first couple of posters mentioned no more homework and fun and games every day.  They will win the popularity contest, while the stricter teacher will be dunked in the water tank for being so mean.

  • ms. v.

    One of the most meaningful comments in my life came from a survey where a student who had struggled intensely with mental health issues and turned in almost nothing for a whole year, wrote, “You pushed me when others gave up on me.” So, no, I don’t expect my students to rate me higher if I lower my expectations for them. Just the opposite.

    I’ve taught hundreds or thousands of adolescents and pre-adolescents, and yes, they are often flaky and sometimes self-centered and occasionally prone to group-think (but these things describe a ton of adults, too!).

    Nonetheless, they are young adults, whom I like and care about, with a fierce sense of justice and a keen eye for what happens in the different classrooms they visit every day. The vast majority, while griping and being flaky about homework, tests, and the like, understand why they have to do it and share their families’ and teachers’ general goals for themselves. They know they’re in your classroom to learn, and they have a sense of what the stakes are if they don’t get a good education, even if they don’t always follow-through on their end of the bargain. 

    On every survey given by me or my administration over the years, I’ve found the students to be nothing but honest. Sure, there are a few who misread the rating scale or whose answers reflect their mood that day or revenge for a low test grade, but they have been vanishingly few, and their responses wash out in the data. When I’ve seen the results of student surveys about teachers who were struggling, if anything, the students rated them more generously than I would have, but not as high as they rated teachers who were more effective. It seemed fair to me!

    Am I the only one a bit surprised by other teachers’ really strong reaction that the kids can’t be trusted? I am surprised by such scathing dismissals of their students’ motivation, drives, and ability to be fair in a high-stakes situation. I read these comments and feel sad about the “us versus them” vibe regarding the very students whom they serve every day.

  • JL

    Seeing the typical cynical comments about giving no homework and being loved, etc. is a reminder of why school reform has so much further to go. I’m very pro-union, so let’s get that out there. (Although you’re welcome to doubt me as you read…and I’m sure some will. Judge away!) I just want a sensible union and I want kids to be first. That said — these surveys are actually pretty good from all of the research I’ve seen. The ones that that Gates Foundation is talking about (Tripod) have been shown to be the best possible indicator of student outcomes on standardized exams. Better than AP observations of teachers, better than Acuity, better than the levels that the city puts on ARIS. I think that if these surveys are kept whole and not butchered like the city’s version of Danielson, they could be valuable since they are based on solid research. These surveys are a good tool…one of many. Like any tool they need to be used properly. 

    Common sense goes a long way. I’ve been in the system for 10 years. I’m glad to have union protections from abusive conditions, but having blanket immunity from responsibility is not good for anyone. Cynicism isn’t going to get anyone anywhere either. We need to think differently, and these surveys are a good start. I think it would be great to try them for a year or two without them being a part of our contract-based evaluation. That way we can see if there is a value…and if they do become part of performance evaluation we will have had a chance to adjust before the heat gets turned up.

    I’m tired of hearing my colleagues say that the problem is the kids and that the best way to effect change is to keep things the way they are. For people who spend a lot of time moaning about how the kids don’t want to work, don’t take personal responsibility and walk in the door with a ridiculous sense of entitlement…a lot of teachers sure are guilty of just those accusations. 

    People like Bronx Teacher and Jack just assume that this is bad without knowing the facts. If you had taken any time to read up on these surveys you would know that they are designed to bypass that kind of popularity contest rating and get to the things that matter and which kids can and will be honest about. “Is my teacher fun,” doesn’t appear anywhere. “Does my teacher push me to succeed even when I want to give up,” does. Yes, there are plenty of teachers who should be afraid of these surveys. But, frankly, I’m very comfortable with those people finding the door as soon as humanly possible. 

  • A.S.Neill

    I’ve been thinking about this all week. I recognize kids are frequently very perceptive about there teachers, I use anonymous written feedback already and find it very valuable, and I have no doubt my students would give me good ratings. Without even asking, they tell me how much they like my classes because I make things clear and other kind of gushy stuff. :)

    But I am still opposed to student feedback as part of an evaluation system. Maybe I’m wrong. But maybe you are. Maybe there is just genuine valid disagreement, which itself should be a cause for concern and hesitation. Initially, I was suspicious because individuals can act one way when alone but completely differently in a peer group setting, kids as well as adults.There is substantial evidence psycho-sociologically, historically, and in research for that fact. And I do think the proponents of student evaluations still underrate this possibility which may not be easily detected in large statistical studies.If even one good teacher’s career is ruined because of this kind of evaluation, I believe it would be unacceptable. Otherwise, you have instituted a moral system of utilitarianism which generally doesn’t work. Destroy one person so you make 99 better. And personally I don’t care if its 99 kids who are somehow better than one adult. Its a bad example to set for any society.

    I am also suspicious of the DOE to institute any education reform at present concerning teachers so long as they refuse to admit the inadequacies of the APPR model which is obvious to any statistician. They are effectively lying to parents, teachers and the public and perhaps to themselves as well.As such, they cannot be trusted to institute any reform at this point and their leadership must be removed pending the next mayoral election.

    So the best I can offer at this point, is a hold on this matter.

     

         

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