Comments on: Rise & Shine: Council members seek softer discipline, more P.E.

By: Lost in Space

Lost in Space — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 01:09:00 +0000

“Everyone worries about the problem kids but no one advocates for the kid who suffers silently while the teacher has to spend precious time trying different strategies aimed at sustaining the attention of two or three kids for 15 to 20 minutes. ”
Truer words have not been spoken regarding schools in New York City.

By: nycdoenuts

nycdoenuts — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 23:36:00 +0000

One guy has been running the system for a very long time now. Do you really think a special interest group is responsible for that finding formula?

By: Roma Giudetti

Roma Giudetti — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 23:20:00 +0000

Why not put together a panel of teachers and get their input? After all we are in the classrooms every day dealing with behavior problems. I can tell you during my tenure in the Bronx some kids were simply out of control. I felt terrible for the students who showed up each day ready to work only to have their instructional time hijacked by kids throwing books around the room, fighting over pens and pencils, screaming at each other and fighting. There could not be one minute of downtime during the lesson or all hell would break loose. I never turned my back on the room because I didn’t know who would throw something or say something offensive and start a battle. Each day from September to June I brought with me pens (I had to hand out pens without the caps or the caps would be thrown around the room.) and pencils and paper because often the same kids would show up without supplies. I tried to take any obstacle out of the way so that kids could be engaged and thus minimally disrupt others. I often thought that if a middle class parent discovered that their child’s instructional time was being cut in half by problem behavior by two or three kids, the outcome would have been different. Everyone worries about the problem kids but no one advocates for the kid who suffers silently while the teacher has to spend precious time trying different strategies aimed at sustaining the attention of two or three kids for 15 to 20 minutes. I think these type of children should be in a charter school where classes are smaller and there are more resources.

By: Ken Hirsh

Ken Hirsh — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:28:00 +0000

I like the concepts behind Larry’s suggestion. I’d differ on lots of the particulars, but I’m a big fan of three things his approach includes:
1. Money follows the children, adjusted for their characteristics.
2. Choice
3. Competition

I know #2 and #3 are controversial. I would think that #1 would be quite popular, but since it doesn’t seem to be, I imagine some combination of:
1. I’m missing something.
2. Special interest groups don’t want funding to be simple and transparent.

By: Larry Littlefield

Larry Littlefield — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 20:38:00 +0000

Deck chairs on the titanic, but back before February 2008, when I used to think and write about what should be done, I suggested the best solution is competing school systems within the city.

Let charter schools continue to expand. Pay for state certified teachers who are not parts of religious orders teaching state manated subjects in parochial schools.

Let the Board of Education come back without ANY Mayoral appointees, borough presidents only, and run half the other schools, or perhaps one third of the total.

Let the Mayor run the other third, without the fig leaf of this education council or whatever it is.

And give them all equal funding per student, adjusted for their characterisitics. The Council would vote the budget but not run the schools, allowing it and the Comptroller to serve as neutral overseers.

Rather than travel across the city, parents would have several competing options close by. Teachers would have options too. Competition would mean good ideas would be copied, and bad ones quickly discarded. But styles could be different.

I suspect that not all teachers and parents want the same thing. We replaced an unaccountable BOE/union monopoly with a Mayoral/union monopoly. No matter what is done, someone is going to be unhappy.

By: Michael M. (parent still)

Michael M. (parent still) — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 20:15:00 +0000

Indeed. Even more true when it’s a single politician.

Mayoral control is a disaster. What should come next is open to, and overdue for, debate.

By: Michael M. (parent still)

Michael M. (parent still) — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 20:09:00 +0000

Another week, another DOE double-standard story.
Principles fined. Would teachers iin the same jam have been fired?

By: Mr. Flerporillo

Mr. Flerporillo — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 17:24:00 +0000

I’d be interested in other teachers’ reactions to Quinn’s proposal. According to the NYT, “[t]he proposed code would also prohibit students from being suspended for ‘insubordination’ [,] a victory for advocates who have long called that an overly vague ‘catch-all’ for students who are difficult to manage.” Assuming that it’s the teachers who would be doing the “managing” of “difficult” students as an alternative to suspensions, this sounds like a proposal to make teachers’ jobs more difficult.

By: nycdoenuts

nycdoenuts — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 17:04:00 +0000

So much! Lol… Skills standards (like common core) would be controlled by the state with curriculum controlled by the districts. Superinendents would run their district with, as Ken Hirsh said, governmental oversight (and funding), but the sup would need to make decisions with an elected district board … the stakeholders should be present (sorry, democracy is a messy process). Each district would have several board members,.elected by the community, and the BOARD of Education would be elected city-wide.
Voters, btw, would vote on the NYC schools budget (to be paid for through income tax) every year on May 15th just like every other school district does (althoigh here, it would be city-wide). It’s got to be an all-in process.

I know that may sound crazy, but hey B, you asked.

By: Ken Hirsh

Ken Hirsh — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 13:24:00 +0000

It’s a huge topic, of course. Briefly, I think the government should focus on oversight of schools rather than operating schools. The guidelines for their oversight should be more principles-based rather than rules-based. One principle would be to encourage local management and decision-making where possible.

To be clear, this oversight role would be very challenging to execute well even though it is a far more limited role than the current one.

By: B

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:46:00 +0000

Let me engage you on the topic: I don’t necessarily disagree with you at all. I’m just curious, if you had the ability to change who runs what, what would you change?

By: nycdoenuts

nycdoenuts — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:37:00 +0000

*Hirsh*

By: nycdoenuts

nycdoenuts — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:36:00 +0000

I actually agree completely! There are way too many stakeholders that get ignored when the politicians run all 1700 schools. A much better way would be for these parents and students and communities -and teachers and building leaders- to engage school policy on the community level.

ONE way community based education would benefit students? My students from south Queens would be able to learn more about the second Great Migration (their history) than Ellis Island (mine).

No.sarcasm, Ken Hirsch. I really think you’re on to something here.

By: Copernicus

Copernicus — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:23:00 +0000

Absolutely, the solution to the almost non existent discipline in the schools is to relax the boundaries even more. Soon students will be allowed to defacate in the classroom freely.
Any first year psychology student knows that chidren need boundaries. They will test limits all by themselves without any help from Walcott or Quinn. All this ridiculous policy will accomplish is to destabilize classrooms even further, thereby allowing scores to drop further and give the DOE the ammunition they need to fire more teachers.
I would like to suggest that all the “advocates” spend a week in a middle school classroom and then express their opinion on how students should be treated.
I wonder, are they so forgiving with their own children?????
Oh, and will the charter schools be required to allow and accept all this misbehavior?
As usual, we will punish the quiet majority of students who come to school every day, follow the rules, and then sit by while the disruptive students run the classrooms.

By: Ken Hirsh

Ken Hirsh — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:02:00 +0000

Reading some of these stories reminds me that the best way for a government to manage 1700 schools is for politicians to realize that they shouldn’t be running 1700 schools.