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chapter politics

January 18, 2012

Proposed change in union rules would give retirees more votes

by Philissa Cramer, at 4:55 pm

A policy change up for approval by teachers union leaders today would increase the weight of retired teachers in union elections.

The proposal, which the union leadership’s say is meant to make voting more democratic, has roiled critics who say it represents a bid to consolidate power by a leadership that fears dissent.

At issue are the union’s complex rules about how to count votes from its different constituencies during leadership elections. Under the bylaws, active teachers and members of other UFT chapters, including paraprofessionals and nurses, get one vote each. If 25,000 current teachers cast votes, 25,000 votes are counted.

But the votes of retired teachers are capped, a provision that union leaders have said was aimed to limit retirees’ influence. Since 1989, if 25,000 retired teachers vote, only 18,000 of those votes would count. In 2010, when the union elected Michael Mulgrew president, retired teachers’ ballots counted only for seven-tenths of a vote.

Under the proposed policy, that cap would be raised but not eliminated: 23,500 votes from retired teachers would be counted.

UFT officials say they are taking advantage of the addition of more than 20,000 members this month to amend the union’s constitution to reflect membership changes, including growth in the influential retirees chapter. Also up for approval is a move to give the new members, home day care workers, representation on the executive board.

But the proposed change has its critics — and is making strange bedfellows out of people who are often viscerally opposed to each other. Members of Educators 4 Excellence, a group aimed at boosting teachers’ influence on education policy, and Norm Scott, a union activist who has criticized E4E, both said they thought the move would diminish the voices of active teachers.

“I think this is extremely dangerous for the union to do this,” Scott said, who helped found an opposition caucus within the UFT. “[Union leaders] already have too much power and the danger for the union is that it continues to shut out the voice of people in the classroom.”

“I think by doing this the UFT leadership is telling classroom teachers that they don’t matter,” said Sydney Morris, an E4E co-president.

The shift could give retired teachers more weight in elections. If 23,500 retired teachers’ votes had been counted in the 2010 elections, retired teachers would have made up 46 percent of the vote. Under the 18,000 cap, their ballots accounted for 39 percent of all votes.

Not that they could have altered the outcome: Mulgrew won the presidency by an 82-point margin, with 91 percent of the vote.

The amendment also would not restore retired teachers’ vote to its power in 1989, when the 18,000 cap was set, union officials said. Since then, the number of active teachers increased, but the number of retired teachers grew faster, from about 18,000 to 57,000 now, they said.

Retired teachers make up the union’s most enthusiastic voting bloc. In 2010, less than a quarter of active teachers voted in union elections, but nearly half of all retired members cast ballots. Retirees contribute significantly to the union’s political fund and also turn out in large numbers for advocacy campaigns, officials said today. The union even conducts voting by snail mail to ensure that retired members, who might lack internet connections or computers, can weigh in.

Scott said the influence of retirees is one of many ways the UFT’s power structure discourages members from becoming involved. Without strong involvement from active teachers, he said the union would be unlikely to wage an effective battle against policies it opposes, such as the city’s rollout of new evaluation evaluations. In recent weeks, city and state officials have ganged up on the union after negotiations over new evaluations broke down.

“The union is in this position because they shut out the powerful voices of any teacher who wants to say ‘I disagree with that policy,’” Scott said.

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  • Jot

    A couple of facts with all that has gone on and with the mass retirement the last ten years because of Bloomberg and his policies the retirees will be heard

    Is Sydney Morris a union member?

  • Swan

    I find it beyond sad that less than a 1/4 of active teachers voted in the last election. Apathy will kill ya’ quicker than anything.

  • Larry Littlefield

    What did I say about union “opposition” to proposals to cut the pay and benefits of future teachers to pay for the retroactive enrichments for those who cashed in and moved out?  

    Thanks to those enrichments and the resulting cuts to the classroom there will soon and for decades be more retired teachers than teachers working.

    Do the retirees pay dues?  If not, they should, because that and the limited number of teachers who don’t care about their jobs is who the UFT in fact represents.  Meanwhile, it is an injustice that anyone hired since the mid-2000s contract with lower increases for new hires, let along the later deal to cut take home pay for new hires, let alone he future deal is forced to pay dues.

  • Jot

    Larry I thought you said it’s over but I quess when you obsess over certain things it’s never over. The only injustice here is that you repeat yourself over and over and you really have no educational reason to comment here but your hidden agenda. We all know where your coming from and in reality no one cares.
    There has been an 80 percent turnover in the teaching profession since Bloomberg was first elected.The injustice is what the mayor is doing to the school system.
    If someone takes the job today they should know that they will not last past five years and then they can move on to another profession.
    You are not a teacher so why do you care the truth is you really couldn’t give a damn you just enjoy the drama.
    Mr.Numbers find something else to obsess over.

  • Flerp

    Congrats on making it past the Gotham Schools censors!  Was it the new username that did it for you? 

  • Ed

    why do RETIRED teachers even have a vote at all?

  • Flerp

    So they can make sure somebody’s making sure they get what’s theirs. 

  • Larry Littlefield

    I mean what is Mulgrew thinking?   Putting a change in voting rules to slash the weight of those teachers who are going to be shafted the day after the Governor announces the shafting?  

    You’d have thought they’d have separated the two by at least a few news cycles, so people wouldn’t think they had anything to do with each other.

    Oh and Jot, I have a hidden agenda?  What is it, and why do I have it?

  • http://nyceducator.com/ NYC Educator

    Morris is not a real teacher, but she plays one in various articles, generally written by reporters who fail to note that distinction.

  • Flerp

    I believe they do pay dues, from their pension checks. 

    I also think that the union’s understating the number of retirees at 57,000.  My recollection from the public data is that the number was in the mid-60,000s as of 2009.  Of course soon there’ll be no more public data and the UFT can say whatever it wants.

    Quite chivalrous of Norm to stick up for the living despite being a pensioner himself. 

  • Ed

    which is what exactly? they’re retired, they have their pensions…
    why do retired teachers even have a vote at all?

    I’m really trying to understand this. Can anyone give me a logical explanation? Concrete examples? I can’t come up with any.

  • Pjg320

    The wrong headed arguments opposed organizing paraprofessional & school secretaries & home care workers, retirees are the unions day time army attending rallies, to Albany and to Wisonsin to fight ..retirees pay dues, contribute to COPE at a high level, as far as voting remember less than of Americans vote in presidential election as far as E4E member Morris, she is a fulltime E4E staffer, paid, & undoubtedly on a leave, she woukd have to dues directly. My suggestion: run for Chapter, run for Delegate and speak your piece

  • Jot

    knew that 

  • Jot

    Read what you write and compare it to all the other teacher bashing that is going on all over the country. It’s the pensions that have caused all of this, no its people in your profession who stole all of this money and caused all of this turmoil. Its the generation greed stuff that you spout all the time and you should be looking in the mirror because you are as responsible as everyone else.
    You are a very jealous person and you hate the fact that some people earned their pension and your not getting one.
    You would last one moment working as a teacher just like you lasted one moment running for public office. Everyone saw thru you and thats why you weren’t elected. You are a bitter self centered ocd  person who does have a hidden agenda but truthfully its so easy to see thru you and what you are trying to accomplish.

  • Larry Littlefield

    “Its people in your profession who stole all of this money and caused all of this turmoil.”
    City planners?  As for the money that was “stolen,” it never existed.  It was a figment of the stock and housing bubbles.  But Wall Streeters getting bonuses and public employees getting pension enhancements took a large amount of the money that didn’t actually exist.  And now the serfs and younger generations are being sacrificed to pay for it.

    “You are a very jealous person and you hate the fact that some people earned their pension and your not getting one.”

    Wall Streeters have adopted that theme too.  Objections to their pay is all envy.  I don’t think its envy.  People are just upset about fraudulently obtained benefits they didn’t have a say in being paid at their expense.  Which is why their voting power is being diluted.

  • Jot

    you never stay on the subject. You compare wall streeters to teachers are you nuts. Public employees fradulently obtained benefits where did that happen? It’s a matter of public record and you know it. You twist and turn but you say nothing. 

    Larry to use your words IT’S OVER
    The money never existed so what’s the big deal?
    You have all the answers but really none of the answers.

    I know it’s envy because you didn’t get a piece of the pie
    I said it before you are as responsible as everyone else.
    You were running for public office I think you call that politics
    You are responsible for this mess take some responsibility.

    Wall streeters and teachers they made the mess according to you.
    God give me a break

  • Tiredofyou

    Flerp

    Can beat the system a thousand ways.
    I have a law degree

  • Vote NO!

    Ed,

    Retirees  have  their  pensions  protected  by  incredibly  solid  legal  statutes.  That  goes  for  any retiree  with  a  pension,  not  just  teachers. Retiree  benefits  cannot  be  reduced  for  recipients,  only  new  tiers  for  future   employees.   They  really  don’t  need  union  protection.  However,  older  people  living  on  fixed  income  are  fearful of  change.  The  UFT leadership  knows  this.  Giving  retirees  a  vote,  ensures  the  UFT  leadership  remains  in  place.

    If  the  Union  leadership  negotiates  a horrible  contract  that  hurts  classroom  teachers,  they  can  still  count  on  the  retiree  vote  in  union  elections.  The  retirees  weren’t  effected  by  the  contract.

  • Vote NO!

    Exactly,

    Norm  is  a  stand-up  guy.  The  policy  makers  should  listen  to  what  he  says.  Like  many  true  veteran  teachers,  a  sense  of  “right  and  wrong”  trumps  increased  monetary  interests.  That’s  something  that  many  “education  reformers”  have   never  learned.

  • Larry Littlefield

    You should read why I was ticked off enough to run for office.  There is my hidden agenda.  Note that I exactly predicted that pension enhancements for those cashing in and moving out would lead to lower pay and benefits for new hires.  Not because I’m a genius, but because it happens over and over in New York.

    http://ipny.org/Littlefield/civicunion2020.html

    Back then, I thought it was fixable if people could be made to face up what was going on.  Now I’m not so sure.  Perhaps things have to collapse before it stops.

  • http://ednotesonline.blogspot.com/ Norm

    I’ll have a deeper analysis of the background of this constitutional
    change on Ed Notes later in the day —which in the midst of the crisis we face was the major topic
    of debate at the UFT Del Ass yesterday — showing everyone exactly what
    the priorities of the union leadership are as they diluted the
    influence of classroom teachers who are the most affected even more. There is a connection between giving retirees a bigger voice and the expected disaffection of working teachers from the union.

    While I appreciate that some of my points were made in this article I also don’t care for being lumped in with E4E’s Sydney Morris, especially since her group has basically disappeared here in NYC and has shifted its activities to to try to undermine the LA union. Mulgrew actually used the Gotham inquiry about E4E in his speech yesterday urging the DA to adopt the changes. Why even bring in E4E into this conversation since the leaders spent so little time in teaching and are not union members? E4E members who are teaching have the opportunity to engage in the internal struggles which so many activists within the union take part but have chosen to sit on the sidelines and lob pathetic critiques.

    Many of these activists are choosing to engage the union and are holding a State of the Union all day conference on Sat. Feb. 4, an event that all people seeking to turn the UFT into a true progressive union should attend.

  • Jot

    Wait now after all the things you said about not having a hidden agenda you admit to having at least one. Talk about talking out of two sides of your mouth.
    On another of your points hundreds of millions have been wasted by this mayor on fixes that don’t work maybe if you addressed some of those issues you would be seen as moderate instead one only having one issue.
    There are so many issues that you should address such as
    1. Have charters pay their fair share
    2. Stop destroying neighborhood schools and replacing then with schools that don’t work
    3. Paying hundreds of million for consultants that don’t teach
    4. Paying three times the salaries for administration positions that aren’t needed.
    5.Allowing your friends to start charter school and get millions of dollars in tax money when it hasn’t been shown that these schools are any better.
    6. Destroying a profession that is constantly under attack on all levels including your constant one issue attacks

  • Ken Hirsh

    It amazes me that, in effect, citizens of NYC have to collectively bargain with RETIRED teachers (many of whom don’t even live in NY) as to how the public school system operates.  Even if one supports public sector collective bargaining, I wonder how this sort of bargaining unit is logically justified.  I’m not an expert on the issues here.  I’d be curious to hear the opinions of others, e.g. Norm, Flerp, etc. 

  • Flerp

    The main interest of retirees is their pension.  As VOTE NO! observes, there are strong legal protections (constitutional, not statutory) that prevent pensions from being diminished.   However, although it’s difficult, it’s not impossible to change that through the legislative process.  So one way the union represents retirees is through its lobbying activities in Albany.  There’s also cost-of-living-adjustment legislation.  And retirees presumably get access to various administrative services from the union regarding their pension and health benefits.  So it’s not necessarily irrational for retirees to want to belong to the UFT.  And I’m sure the union leadership sells membership hard for the obvious financial benefits it brings to the union.  

  • Michael Fiorillo

    Ken Hirsh,

    The city bargains with UFT retirees only to the extent that retirees vote for union officers and Executive Board every three years; they do not vote on contracts.

  • Ken Hirsh

    Thanks Flerp.

    It seems to me that it would make more sense for the citizens of NYC to be negotiating (through their elected officials) with a bargaining group that only included active employees.  I think retirees could create a separate organization that advocates and lobbies for legislation that protects their interests.  However, it seems inappropriate for citizens to have to negotiate (via their elected officials) on non-pension education reform with a unit that is significantly influenced (if not controlled) by retirees.  I wonder about the legal basis for a public sector bargaining unit that is materially different from the active public sector workers in question.  I wonder if the courts have ever opined on this.  Seems wrong to me…

  • http://ednotesonline.blogspot.com/ Norm

    Ken
    Michael is right that retirees don’t vote on union contracts though I have heard Randi ask them to be on the honor system at Delegate Assemblies. In fact there have been modifications to the contract that the union has only put to a vote at the DA and not taken to the members.
    Much of this is theoretical Ken. The reality is that in the over 60 year history of one party rule in the UFT there has at no point been an opposition party that would have won an election even if the retirees couldn’t vote. Why this is so would involve a lengthy analysis which one day soon I hope to do. But there is significance in the fact that around 40% of retirees vote and 25% of working teachers vote in UFT elections. Clearly they don’t see the union as significant enough a force to vote which may be a factor of not feeling there is much of a choice — the argument for a rigorous 2-party system.
    Oh, and in case you want to make the case that New Action is a 2nd party, consider that all 8 New Action seats on the UFT Exec Bd were won with the endorsement of Unity — like those parties in Kazaghstan — though I will give them credit for opposing the constitutional change.

  • http://ednotesonline.blogspot.com/ Norm

    Ken
    Michael is right that retirees don’t vote on union contracts though I have heard Randi ask them to be on the honor system at Delegate Assemblies. In fact there have been modifications to the contract that the union has only put to a vote at the DA and not taken to the members.
    Much of this is theoretical Ken. The reality is that in the over 60 year history of one party rule in the UFT there has at no point been an opposition party that would have won an election even if the retirees couldn’t vote. Why this is so would involve a lengthy analysis which one day soon I hope to do. But there is significance in the fact that around 40% of retirees vote and 25% of working teachers vote in UFT elections. Clearly they don’t see the union as significant enough a force to vote which may be a factor of not feeling there is much of a choice — the argument for a rigorous 2-party system.
    Oh, and in case you want to make the case that New Action is a 2nd party, consider that all 8 New Action seats on the UFT Exec Bd were won with the endorsement of Unity — like those parties in Kazaghstan — though I will give them credit for opposing the constitutional change.

  • Flerp

    Nor do taxpayers. It’s all representational on the level Ken’s talking about. 

  • Ken Hirsh

    That’s a good point, Michael.  I was primarily referring to the representational influence, as Flerp suggests, but your distinction seems important to note.  I think the negotiated contracts that active UFT members vote on would probably look different if retirees didn’t have so much voting influence on union officers.

  • Ken Hirsh

    Thanks Norm.  I look forward to your (and other knowledgable union members) further analysis on this.  I’m curious to get your thoughts on how much retiree voters influence the UFT stance on non-retirement issues.  I would guess, in theory, that many voting retiree members bring their educational ideology (I don’t mean that it a pejorative sense) into their voting decisions even though those decisions might not directly affect them in many cases.  This could be problematic if retirees have a typically different ideology than active members.  As a thought experiment, if all retirees preferred the status quo, but most active members wanted significant change (in whatever common direction), the UFT might still go with the status quo.  Again, as you know, I don’t know much about the union dynamic with respect to these issues, so view these statements as questions!  

  • http://ednotesonline.blogspot.com/ Norm

    Ken
    If rank and file teachers had a real voice they would demand the contract include further class size reductions — the last contract to do that was around 1969 — and don’t bet Bloomberg would load them up if not for those already high limits.

    The elections are as irrelevant within the UFT as they would be in China or other totalitarian nations. A few people at the top make the decisions but those choices have been consistent over decades. For instance — supporting mayoral control or any centralized school system for 50 years — and no matter what the UFT leadership says about the next round they will support some modified form of mayoral control and will actually try to sell the members that Quinn as mayor will be much better than Bloomberg even  though it is a good chance Bloomberg will also support her too.
    Popular belief is that Randi changed directions from Feldman/Shanker but she continued those policies.

    Most active retirees are from Unity Caucus — and the union has money and jobs for them if they do stuff. Also poltical action –sending people to organize in other parts of the country.  Retirees pay dues at a much lower rate and get some good benefits from the union. Many live around the nation and outside NYC and the union hierarchy sends out emissaries to meet with them regularly while any oppostion party has no access. They won’t even provide email or addresses.

    But the single most important fact is that there has never been a viable oppostion for a number of reasons that I won’t go into, but not the least is the attention the leadership pays to this issue of coopting any idea and anyone they think might become an opponent by inviting them into the big tent of Unity. Yes, the schools can burn while the union leadership fiddles over the fact that they haven’t been able to get 100% of the vote instead of 90%.

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