GothamSchools — daily independent reporting on NYC public schools

what he said

December 2, 2011

Bloomberg’s class size comments more strident but in character

by Philissa Cramer, at 11:44 am

If Mayor Bloomberg had his druthers, he would fire half the city’s teachers and pay the remaining half more to supervise twice-as-large classes.

That’s what he said during a wide-ranging speech at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology on Tuesday in which he argued that weak training, social change, and the teachers union have conspired to fill New York City’s schools with less-than-ideal teachers.

“If I had the ability, which nobody does really, to just design the system and say, ex cathedra, this is what we’re going to do, you would cut the number of teachers in half, but you would double the compensation of them, and you would weed out all the bad ones and just have good teachers, and double class size with a better teacher is a good deal for the students,” Bloomberg said.

Listen to the portion of the speech where Bloomberg talks schools (starting at about 5:00): 

Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.

The comments have drawn fire from UFT President Michael Mulgrew, elected officials, and many others. But while they were provocative and unusually specific, the speech tread familiar territory for the mayor.

Bloomberg has long said that he doesn’t see class size as a pressing issue and would opt for better teachers over more teachers. The portion of his speech that dealt with education recycled some of his favored rhetorical flourishes, such as comparing the importance of teacher quality to the value of “location, location, location” in real estate. You can see him make the same analogy in this 2008 video, in which he says about class size, “I don’t even know why the issue comes up anymore.”

And especially under ex-Chancellor Joel Klein, Bloomberg’s Department of Education has pushed the idea that many city teachers are not up to par, launching a sustained push in 2007 to usher more weak teachers out of the system and last year battling against “last in, first out” seniority layoff rules.

Still, Bloomberg’s suggestion of how many city teachers should be sloughed off far outstripped the city’s own estimates. When a new teacher evaluation system was piloted in 20 schools last year, 18 percent of teachers were rated “ineffective” — far higher than the 3 percent given unsatisfactory ratings under the current system, but nowhere near 50 percent.

Less provocative, but perhaps more surprising, was a comment in the speech that signaled a point of disagreement between Bloomberg and Klein, who now heads News Corporation’s digital education unit.

“It may be heresy in this day and age to say so, but there’s not a lot of evidence that when you introduce a lot more technology in the classroom the results are better,” the mayor said, according to DNAInfo. Under Klein’s leadership, the DOE invested heavily in digital learning.

“I’ve always been intrigued by everybody wants to put a computer in every classroom and in front of every kid,” he said, adding that cell phones and iPads are prohibited in city schools over concerns about “the lawsuits over the pornography that the kids would be watching.”

Print Print
  • Los Flerpos

    He’s going a bit off the rails here, I fear.  I went to public school and had great teachers, mediocre teachers, and awful teachers.  It mattered.  It still would have mattered, but mattered much less, in a classroom with double the students.  Ultimately, when classes reach a certain size, the quality of teaching is largely irrelevant, unless you’re talking about a class that’s built around a lecture format at an institution where students are motivated and attentive.  Lower class sizes have to be a goal for NYC public schools.  There’s not point in trying to improve teaching if you abandon that goal. 

  • Los Flerpos

    He’s going a bit off the rails here, I fear.  I went to public school and had great teachers, mediocre teachers, and awful teachers.  It mattered.  It still would have mattered, but mattered much less, in a classroom with double the students.  Ultimately, when classes reach a certain size, the quality of teaching is largely irrelevant, unless you’re talking about a class that’s built around a lecture format at an institution where students are motivated and attentive.  Lower class sizes have to be a goal for NYC public schools.  There’s not point in trying to improve teaching if you abandon that goal. 

  • Music teacher

    I’m a teacher in a public school in Manhattan.The mayor is so out of touch with the realities of city schools, it’s scary. First, porn is blocked on school networks, as is facebook, youtube, games, and any other waste of time. Class sizes are already maxed out at my school, 34 kids in a room. He is suggesting having 68 students per teacher per class. Would we teach in auditoriums? Would we get microphones? That also means every high school teacher has a total of 340 students. Getting paid double doesn’t increase the number of hours in a day. Thanks for the insult to start the weekend, Mr. Mayor.

  • michael

    I say FIRE THE MAYOR, and everyone else at Tweed, and give that money to the schools, and the children that need it.

  • Larry Littlefield

    Lipstick is being put on a pig.  The number and cost of retired teachers has gone up, so the number on the job is going down, and there is no stopping it.  So the line is that it isn’t a problem.  Because the alternative is to admit we’re screwed.
     
    If I were designing a school system “ex cathedra,” I might take the $13,000 per student the NYC schools spent on teachers (wages and benefits) in 2009 (much higher now) and use it to pay qualified teachers $156,000 each to oversee the education of 12 children from the neighborhood in their home or apartment.  The teachers could divide the money between wages and benefits for working and years not working as they chose.
     
    Parents would take turns pitching in on the days they didn’t work.  The $617 per student spent on “school administration” could be spent on roving “principals” who spent part of a day with each teacher every now and then.
     
    Perhaps the teachers would also get the $1,566 per child ($19,000 per 12) for operation and maintenance of plant, because their house or apartment would be used for education, and the $439 per student ($5,268 per 12) for food services, since they would cook for (and with) the kids.
     
    And if the parents and teachers wanted, they could pay the teachers extra to watch the kids after school while they did their homework or played outside.
     
    But there is no point to this sort of speculation.  The die is cast.

  • Los Flerpos

    “First, porn is blocked on school networks, as is facebook, youtube, games, and any other waste of time.”

    There is something called “3G.”

  • Philip Nobile

    Far worse than Mayor Bloomberg’s ex cathedra fantasy about the beatitude of bloated class size was his June 14 whopper alleging an historic 65.1% graduation rate for the class of 2010 that he sold as “proof positive that the reforms we’ve adopted and the investments we’ve made are paying off in a big way.” The Mayor and Chancellor Walcott, who repeated the boast, knew or should have known that the 65.1 figure was impossible and that the true number was lower. Tweed will not challenge this comment because Tweed is my source.   

  • guest

    have to agree with my friend who said that maybe Bloomturd should consider visiting a doctor – seems like he might need an MRI or a CAT scan to determine what is going on inside that tiny head of his – maybe he has a tumor taking over every sane rational normal considerate and intelligent part of his brain – he never ever ceases to amaze me with all of the disgusting things that come out of his mouth – wonder how many kids his girls had in a class in their private schools -I am guessing about 15 – he is just so disgusting and he needs to go before he forgets where he stores his billions!

  • old teach

    After 10 years of absolute control over the New York City public schools these comments clearly show the total lack of understanding on how to educate children. Mayor Bloomberg, it has been reported, has recently ordered his top officials within the different city agencies to compile data on the success of his administration. No doubt, education his signature piece will be the most important. I can only imagine the spin he and his paid for cronies will put on the numbers that by all accounts add to to minimal if any progress at all. After the bought and paid for third term this mayor will be fully responsible for an entire generation of children grades 1 to 12 that he and his administration have controlled. Those within the education community already know the results. Will the general public ever be presented with the real data on this failure ?

  • Teresa O.

    These comments are more of the same thread with this man who clearly knows nothing about education.  I’m sure he would be upset if his child were in a class with 40 plus students.  He should do with less accountants, lawyers and bike lanes and then money would not be an issue. His legacy as mayor is taking a troubled school system, and making it even more  troubled. 

  • guest

    Every parent in New York City should be outraged at these comments. How dare he suggest that class size doesn’t matter?  It just shows a complete lack of information, experience and common sense.

  • http://twitter.com/BNiche B

    Man, if this ever came to be, my students would hate me! I’m a terrible cook.

  • Guest

    As a parent of a student at one of selective high schools, I know of no student that is watching porn on their phones. If Bloomberg had said he was concerned about students playing Smurfs then he might have a point.

  • Xbcw

    If technology doesn’t matter why does the DOE insist on pouring money into it…please bring some money back to the classroom!!!

  • SickofBloomberg

    What kind of Twilight Zone nightmare are we living in when a blatantly incompetent fool such as Bloomberg is allowed the platform to spew such lunacy?  It is truly pathetic that the system has allowed this imbecile to reach any level of power and influence over the city schools.  We have invaded countries for less offensive acts than what Bloomberg has perpetrated on city schools.  It is truly unfathomable.

  • Michael M. (parent still)

    Why not fire all but one teacher per grade, pay him or her a few million a year, and put their mugs up on a screen in each class, no make that auditorium?

    Recall the famous Apple ad?  Worked for them.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R706isyDrqI

  • Michael M. (parent still)

    7th largest army.  Not the 7th best performing school system.

    Are Bloomberg’s grads even qualified to join his army?

  • bookworm

    Remember lecture halls in college? Two hundred students in a class and the professor waaaaay down in the front? Works in college, why not try it in kindergarten?  Should be no problem as long as the room has a SMART Board.

  • Bandmaster2

    When you are worth approximately 20 billion dollars in personal money, as is the case with Mr. Bloomberg, it’s truly amazing how reticent people are in criticizing him.  Ever since he took office, the amount of abuse of everyone attached to the education community has gotten worse and worse.  Unless you are employed in a school, or are a parent of a child in a NYC school, you have no idea about schools.  From day one, when Mr. Bloomberg took office, the plan was whole sale union busting.  Let’s systematically starve public education of necessary money, and give the resources to profit-making charter schools.  This is unfortunately a virus that has infected large areas of the country.  I am thoroughly disappointed and disgusted with college schools of education for being silent on this mess.  When are they going to step up?

  • Brooklyn Guest

    My daughter graduated from a NYC public school two years ago.  Most of her teachers all through public school were pretty good and very dedicated…but she usually had about 30-34 kids in each class which meant the teachers had very little time to extensively grade papers or respond to work, give any extra time to students, etc….The Mayor thinks that 60-68 kids per teacher is a good idea?  He’s lost his mind, obviously.  He has children–I am sure that they went to private schools that nurtured them with lots of one on one time, great resources…all the things he says that kids don’t need.

  • Anonymous

    For my comments on the latest idiocy of Bloomberg on class size, see our NYC parent blog here: http://goo.gl/TDh0g
     (esp. since GS almost never links to it )

  • Anonymous

    for those who are interested, the mayor’s daughters went to Spence; average class size 16-18; about half the size of many our classes.  If he thinks that doubling class size is a good  idea he should tell the Spence trustees.  Perhaps that would make the quality of education in that school equal that provided in NYC public schools.

  • Lucia7498

    I think blooms has replaced students with statistics. Stats dont need teacher attention. Students do

  • Guest

    As a teacher in a city high school, you havea to shake your head at Bloomberg’s comments. Every occupation has their poor performers and their strong performers. That is the way of the world. I would say that maybe 10 % of teachers need extra help in becoming compotent teachers. Why not try and help them become better teachers and not bash all
    the other teachers. But to say class size does not matter at all is totally rediculous.

    The one point that he has that might have some validity is why dont we get rid of half of the politiicians.Why do we need them all? Why not have half the politicians and get rid of the other 50 % who are not qualified. And while we are at it, why dont we put in place stiff qualifications to be a mayor, school chancellor and president. What exactly qualifies Mr Bloomberg or Mr Gates to be educational experts. At least teachers have met some minimum standards to be in the clasroom and talk about education.

  • Michael M. (parent still)

    Furthering your point re qualifications and especially for chancellor, note the irony that Bloomberg’s three Chancellors have all needed waivers from requirements in state law due to… lack of required qualifications.

    http://www.observer.com/2011/politics/compare-and-contrast-waiver-requests-cathie-black-and-dennis-walcott
    http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/kleins-waiver-and-the-citys-chief-street-monitor/

  • 2nd Year Science Teacher

    He is ridiculous.  70 kids in a class?  Imagine trying that.  Also, I’d like to see where he gets his statistics from…bottom 20% of our classes? someone in the MIT crowd should have told him to go eat a fat one.

  • Anonymous

    As usual, a mental deficient on social issues.

    We need a deus ex machina to get this guy out of office; and it just might be his foot.

    What he’s really babbling about is a small high-tech lecture hall of some sort. Lecturing in any manner is not the same as teaching in a public primary or secondary school in NYC today. It could be effective for educational self-starters with appropriate internal motivations, but even better would be good PBS programs. In fact, all they would really need is a decent textbook and some supplementary materials, web links, etc. So, I guess he’s advocating leaving 80% of the human race behind. Hey, why not 99%?

  • Guest Mest

    yes except kids can’t bring phones into school.

  • Arihsteinfeld

    One would have to wonder why Mayor Bloomberg has such disdain for the teachers of New York City, when according to his prior Chancellor (Mr.Joel Klein) the system made tremendous gains, and graduation rates as well as student performance soared. If one accepts that children progressed and performed so well under his leadership then we must  look at the teachers in the classroom to explain the progress.When economic times were better he claimed New York City teachers were some of the smartest in the nation. The problem is that as our nation finds itself in economic turmoil we will continue to stand for children and their needs. At present our mayor does not realize that in good economic times as well as bad economic times children must come first (as the DOE website proclaims). He can say good teachers are the only important fact, and we will say that good teachers with necessary supplies and resources and class sizes which are reasonable matter. After all only four short years ago New York City Teachers were some of the brightest in the nation, according to Mayor Bloomberg.Not for us but for the children of New York City and the future of America we will continue to stand for children and their needs, This Mayor should really step down because statements like this shows his inability to understand these issues, and even worse shows that he can only be the great mayor the city thought he was when economic times are filled with champagne and caviar. He is clearly lost when we all must go back to simple chicken baked potato and salad, and try to find the items on sale. As our students and their families are accustomed to now.

  • Mid-century

    The turnover rate for new teachers is almost 50% over a six year year period. In addition, the system retires approximately 2500 older teachers each year (last year it was about 3000). Therefore, under full Mayoral control of the system, the Mayor has had the unique opportunity to replace well in excess of 50% (may be close to 75%) of the entire teaching workforce with new people that fit his teaching requirements (ivy league schools) and teaching mold. Additionally, in regard to the 105% higher salaries, this is printed at the NYC Department of Education site: “The New York City Department of Education offers extremely competitive salaries to newly hired teachers. Since 2002, starting salaries for NYC public school teachers have increased 43%” Not the 105% figure that the Mayor mentioned. The Mayor, who has full Mayoral control ove the DOE,  is angry and crying because he now realizes that his educational policies have not produced the results hoped for. He must blame someone or something for this failure. Ah, yes, the teachers- that’s it! There the culprits. Most of the teachers working today were hired under the Bloomberg watch.

  • Pogue

    Hopefully, those who voted for Bloomberg in the last election have seen the reality of his BS and taken the “fool me once…” position of his ways.  In order to not make the same mistake, stay far away from anyone HE endorses, anyone NYC editorial boards endorse, anyone Bill Gates or those with LOTS of money endorses, and, sadly, anyone Obama endorses.

    Follow the money, do your homework, and vote in the real interests of children, parents, teachers, the middle class, and the 99%.

    And, for the “school choice” rebutters, the only educational choices Bloomberg has provided these past 11 years have been lies or BS…choose one.

  • Mid-century

    The turnover rate for new teachers is almost 50% over a six year year period. In addition, the system retires approximately 2500 older teachers each year (last year it was about 3000). Therefore, under full Mayoral control of the system, the Mayor has had the unique opportunity to replace well in excess of 50% (may be close to 75%) of the entire teaching workforce with new people that fit his teaching requirements (ivy league schools) and his teaching mold. Additionally, in regard to the 105% higher salaries, this is printed at the NYC Department of Education site: “The New York City Department of Education offers extremely competitive salaries to newly hired teachers. Since 2002, starting salaries for NYC public school teachers have increased 43%” Not the 105% figure that the Mayor mentioned. The Mayor, who has full Mayoral control over the DOE, is angry and frustrated (as I would be, too) because he now realizes that his educational policies have not produced the results we hoped for. He must blame someone or something for this failure. Ah, yes, the teachers- that’s it! They are the culprits. Most of the teachers working today were hired under the Bloomberg watch.show more

  • Tim

    “Follow the money, do your homework, and vote in the real interests of children, parents, teachers, the middle class, and the 99%.”

    Where was the United Federation of Teachers during the last mayoral election? On the sidelines, silent, when their endorsement could have made a real difference, even when so many teachers have fled the city to live elsewhere.

    Follow the money, etc., indeed. The 2009 mayoral election is Exhibit A in the case that the interests of teachers/the UFT are far from being 100% aligned with the best interests of students and their families. 

  • Michael M. (parent still)
  • Michael M. (parent still)

    Blaming the teachers has been the Bloomberg administration’s trumpet call to knock down union walls for years.  Check out this from then-Chancellor Klein, pre-third term election in May 2009:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joel-klein/transforming-the-teaching_b_200616.html

    Per Klein, teachers are obstacles to students civil rights.  But a Smartboard or similar in front of a room full of sardines?  Apparently, that’s all about closing the achievement gap.

  • Michael M. (parent still)

    I don’t recall Mr. Bloomberg thanking the teachers for the 98% A’s and B’s his regime gave its own schools heading into the 2009 election. 

  • FLHSESL

    Big part of the problem is what you casually mentioned, Tim. Every one employed by the City- cops/firemen/sanitation/DOE/ union and non-union alike- should be required to live in NYC proper. Then you would see them more concerned about the quality of educational and other services. Until then, it’s “do my time” and “thank God my kids go to (fill in the blank” ) schools in (Nassau/Suffolk/Westchester/Rockland/Jersey”

  • Pogue

    Dear Tim,

    Do not misconstrue what the leadership of the UFT does as opposed to what many of its “rank and filers” feel.

    If you’ve been paying attention for several years you know how teachers on myriad educational websites have felt about the lack of fight by our union.  The horrendous ATR situation, co-location of charter schools, the closing of the large, neighborhood high schools without so much as a wimper from our leadership.

    But, know that teachers are in it for the children, and others, with all their changes, and technology, and data, and budget-cutting who claim to be for “Children First” are out to cause chaos, destruction, and couldn’t care less about the future of children in NYC.

     

  • Roger T.

    Actually, what he meant to say was “I’d like to double the amount of teachers and cut the class sizes in half.”  Thanks everyone, it has been a great 10 years and with 2 left, I will give ya this one!

Tips, questions, feedback?

Contact us at .

Word from Our Sponsor

From Our Jobs Board

Featured Employers
Recent Jobs

Chalk It Up

Recent Comments

10 comments so far today
View all comments »

RSS Feeds

Newsroom posts Community posts All GothamSchools content

Archives

June 2013
M T W T F S S
« May  
 12
3456789
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930

Copyright Notice