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Classroom tales: A diary

April 21, 2011

The Four Children Of The Haggadah In My Classroom

by Ruben Brosbe, at 11:37 am

One of my favorite parts of the Passover seder has always been the discussion of the Four Children. The traditional seder discusses four children — The Wise Son, The Wicked Son, The Simple One, and The One Who Doesn’t Know How to Ask. Each of these sons has his own question, and the haggadah explains the appropriate response for each one. Since entering the classroom, I’ve had my own thoughts about each of these children, and their manifestations in my own classroom.

The Wise Son asks, “What are the laws and statutes by which to fulfill the commandments of Passover?” This son is exalted, because he seeks to learn more about the rituals of Passover. Furthermore, this question is considered wise, because it shows understanding of the story of Passover and seeks deeper meaning from the seder.

A wise child in the classroom hopefully offers the same sort of questioning for the teacher. A wise child is not content with the cursory understanding of a topic or a strategy, but asks for more information. While too many children are willing to absorb knowledge passively without further elucidation, a wise child asks for more.

More often in my classroom, however, it has been the “wicked” child who challenges me as a teacher. The response to The Wicked Son’s question, “What does this ritual mean to you?” has always bothered me. The haggadah instructs us to “set his teeth on edge.” Had this child been alive during the time of the exodus, the haggadah explains, he would not have been redeemed. Harsh.

The haggadah’s interpretation that this child has excluded himself from the community and rejects the tradition of Passover only partially explains the reaction to The Wicked Son’s question. I know the frustration and anger all too well of a child who scoffs at the rules and routines of the classroom community I’ve created. However, a child who refuses to include himself or herself in a classroom community is also one of the sadder experiences I’ve felt. Is a violent rebuke really the best response?

I’ve also felt that this child’s questioning is also equally valuable as the wise child’s. What does this mean to you? Whether it’s the story of the exodus, or reading, writing and math strategies in a classroom, we all should feel obligated to understand and explain our own connection to a community. This isn’t to absolve the Wicked Son of his disrespect, but all rituals, whether religious or pedagogical, are ultimately strengthened when they are challenged and questioned.

The third child, the Simple Son, is perhaps the most prevalent in the high-needs classroom. But while the Simple Son of the haggadah is implied to be too young for rebellion or wisdom, the “simple” children of our classrooms are not the youngest. Rather, these students populate our classrooms because of a number of factors that yield huge gaps in reading, writing and mathematical skills.

When presented with tasks that require higher-order thinking, their response echoes that of the simple child, “What is the meaning of all this?” These children require more than the equivalent of the haggadah’s instruction to explain the core meaning of Passover. We as teachers are challenged to create scaffolds and tiered lessons that allow these children to engage in critical thinking consistently until they too are challenging us in the same ways as the wicked and wise children.

Finally, we have the children who do not know how to ask. These are the children in our classrooms who suffer most needlessly. Without the means to attract attention via rebellion like the wicked child, or loquaciousness like the wise child, these children fall through the cracks. Too often, the quietness of these children is lauded as good behavior. They may be partly or completely lost, but they’re scared or unable to verbalize this confusion. As a result they become practically invisible.

The essential challenge of a teacher is to recognize and help all of these children learn in the classroom. The haggadah offers some ideas for how each child demands a different response, but the reality of our classrooms is very different than that of a Passover seder. There are no one-sentence answers for these children. Rather, our classrooms require a sophisticated, diligent approach that makes all children feel welcome and able to learn. I’m not sure it’s possible to create a classroom that erases these sorts of differences in one year, but I’m reminded of the words of another figure from the seder, Rabbi Hillel, who said, “You are not obligated to complete the task, but nor are you free to desist from it.”

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  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    This is the last straw. I am now officially renouncing my Judaism.

  • ms. v.

    I wrote similar in an earlier comment on Ruben’s previous post, but before the comment onslaught begins, I wanted to say something here. It’s aimed not just at BronxTeacher but at the half-dozen or so commenters who routinely comment on Ruben’s posts.

    First, I don’t know Ruben. I’ve taught for over a decade in NYC district & charter schools. I’m not a member of E4E nor anything similar. To be honest, it’s a little ridiculous that I feel like I have to distance myself from someone in order to defend his right not to be bullied on the internet.

    Ruben should have been upfront about his membership in E4E a lot earlier: that’s clear. I think you all have made that point decisively, and he has now acknowledged his membership in that organization and expressed a willingness to discuss it. I think you have also exhaustively made the point that you disagree with E4E and much of the content of Ruben’s political/educational beliefs.

    To me, most of the comments being posted in response to and about Ruben are little more than bullying at this point. If your students were posting belittling personal attacks about another student (or your son or daughter), I wonder where you’d draw the line? Aren’t adults & teachers supposed to model respectful discourse?

    I’m sure it’s futile to even write this, and I fully expect to be picked on as well after posting this, but I have to say that reading the comments after Ruben’s last post made me sad and frustrated.

  • http://benjaminresnick.wordpress.com Benjamin Resnick

    Very wise, very timely perspective on the Four Children, Ruben. One interesting think I learned this year is that according to an earlier version of the story (which appears in the Jerusalem Talmud) the response to the Wise Child is actually the response that our Haggadah gives to the Simple Child. Not sure how that fits into classroom dynamics, but definitely food for thought.

    Hag sameach!

  • Ruben

    I would have to think of a parallel, but what comes to mind is the way a good question or task can be open-ended enough to challenge both the “wise” and “simple” child at the same time in different ways.

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    So in the spirit of Passover, I put forth these four questions to Ruben.

    1. Are you tenured?

    2. Why are you no longer at PS 33?

    3. How did you get the gig in October for the New York Post?

    4. Do you plan on being employed by the NYC DOE in September?

  • http://www.accountabletalk.com/ Mr. A. Talk

    No one has reason to “pick on” you. No one is picking of Ruben, either. He accepted this position as a blogger in GS and ever since has been guilty of lies of omission, at the very least. If he intends in any way to be considered a journalist or commentator on education, he must at minimum be honest. He has not been.

    He was not honest about his membership in A4E until he was outed by another blogger. He said he would discuss his tenure and he has not. He told the world that he wants TDRs public and yet he scurried off the 3rd grade knowing he would not get a TDR there. He posted to EduSolidarity, knowing full well that he and his union-busting opinions were not welcome there. His behavior has been underhanded.

    You think we’re bullying him because we call him on his dishonesty and deceit? If he chooses to prevaricate in a public forum he should expect not to be believed or respected.

    If you want to talk about bullying, let’s talk about A4E. A bunch of non-educators take money from billionaires to try to bust the union and steal the jobs and future pensions of hard working, dedicated teachers. They spend millions of dollars on glossy mailers and TV ads trying to poison the public’s mind against public education. The vast majority of teachers see through their BS, but there are a few teachers who side with them. Some side with A4E because they are too gullible to understand the implications of A4E’s positions. Some side with them in the hopes of getting a nice, cushy job like Sydney and Evan have. I’m not sure whether Ruben is gullible or conniving, but I know he does not have the interests of public education at heart. And yes, I do take that as a very personal thing. If Ruben wants to be the voice of A4E, he should man up and at least be honest about his intentions. He has about zero credibility here.

    There are a lot of great teachers out there who would have been fired (not laid off, but fired) had Ruben and his A4E pals gotten their way. I most likely would have been one of them based upon my previous year’s TDR. If he wants to come here and advocate that dedicated teachers like me should be fired so union busters like him can help clear the decks for the billionaires, then yes, he should expect some push back.

  • GC

    Why do people have issues with Ruben? Let’s see:
    He has a tiny sample size of experience and based on this talks down to experienced educators, negates their contributions and is dismissive of their dedication and contributions to education.
    He is dismissive of other points of view. Ex: when I suggested that Principals frequently abuse their power, particularly Leadership Academy Grads, he said it it was only a few bad apples. Anyone who is involved in truly advocating for and protecting teachers or has been around longer than a decade knows how patently false this is. He actively advocates against the seniority protections in the Contract, perhaps related to his membership in a certain Gates/Klein funded/supported organization, protections that provide for due process against bad principals and trumped up charges he insists don’t exist and that teachers went on strike for and sacrificed financial(such as years of zero wage increases) or other improvements in the workplace to keep them in existence, all to perhaps improve his chance at retaining his non tenured position for which he has not paid his dues like his more senior union brothers and sisters. He writes about kids vomiting and other earth shattering issues. It is perceived that his work is not edited or viewed as critically as others who submit articles to

    gothamschools.rightly or wrongly. He is disingenuous at times, sometimes spectacularly, such as in his column on why he supports unions, see Stephen Lazar’s rebuttal in the Community section for a further discussion of why people comment on Ruben’s work as they do. .

  • Anonymous

    looking at ruben’s early posts, he appears to have been excessed from his first school at the end of 08-09. http://bit.ly/ebRGCJ

  • John G

    Ms. V was able to articulate what I felt a lot better than I ever would. I have TONS of respect for the opinions of lots of the people who also happen to be critical of Ruben. I’m no big fan of E4E. Nor am I a fan of some of Ruben’s opinion’s about the larger issues that have been front and center this past year. I still remember the anger I felt after reading the piece he did in the Post last fall.
    But at the same time, he’s a classroom teacher just like many of us (I’ve been in the classroom for 10 years as well), and he should be afforded a lot more respect than he is by people whenever he makes a post. I give his posts the same respect that I give for the posts by Stephen Lazar (and I”m a big big fan of Stephen Lazar). I think others should as well.
    Thanks Ms. V. I felt sad and frustrated too after reading the comments on his last post. I’m glad you said something.

  • GC

    John G. – How do you equate someone who is a chapter leader, a veteran teacher who has demonstrated excellence, who regularly advocates for his staff and for children, who makes valuable posts that concern important issues such as retention of quality staff, with Ruben Brosbe? Stephen has
    walked the walk and earned respect. I have yet to see a column where Ruben talks about demonstrating or exerting himself in any way to advocate for his school or for children, yet he claims to support unions and advocate for children. He is dismissive of veteran educators, trashed his own colleagues and union in the NY Post, responds to any criticism or contrary comments by just restating his opinion or ignoring what was said, he has been disingenuous in his columns. Ruben wants to take away the rights that folks like Mr. Lazar have worked hard for. Why are you so surprised that people are hyper critical of him, he is working against his union brothers and sisters and siding with their enemies, when he is not writing about vomit, his feelings, and other kumbayah PC stuff? When Ruben Brosbe walks the walk instead of just talks the talk, he will be respected. I’m sorry, I just can’t see a Winston Churchill in the same light as a Neville Chamberlain. Some folks may be a little over the top in their criticism and personalize things a bit too much, that is when a moderator
    is supposed to step in, Lord knows that Gotham has done it in the past on his behalf.

  • John G

    ah, GC. I never said I was surprised!! Sad and frustrated, yes! But not surprised. I never knew GS moderated, but to explain:

    First, let me say, his words about policy strike me in the same way they strike you. And I feel the same way you do about the impressions we both get when he talks about some of these issues. Like you, I often twitch when I think about the extent to which folks like Ruben haven’t paid their dues and are heard more than folks who have.

    But when the man writes about a classroom experience, or reflects on one, or even writes about some E4E talking point, he should be afforded the same respect as any other teacher -as any other writer! This opinion that Ms. V gave, and I agree with, shouldn’t raise any controversy.

    Actually, it should be a given (we’re supposed to be the good guys, remember? Klein et al. are the ones who demonlize). And we can disagree, or even call him out if we feel he’s being surreptitious (like Lazar did last month. That was awesome), but we should give him the respect of, for example, not having to ..long pause .. justify his assignment location when he’s writing a post about a crying third grader. (sheesh!) Anyway, that was all I was trying to say.

    And you’re right, I do equate them.They both write for this blog. They both run a classroom (like us). They are also both union brothers (former delegate, former CL here. I’ve earned the right to point that out). And neither of them should be bullied, or discredited as teachers when they express their opinions. In the sense that Churchill and Chamberlain were both Prime Ministers of England during World War 2.

    Look, you’re a real smart guy and I enjoy reading your comments (I find myself agreeing with many of them). I just don’t think the guy should be picked on every time he writes. That’s all
    Best wishes.

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    OK, one question answered, four to go.

    However, why are you answering for Ruben?

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    Why can’t I get this picture out of my head? Ruben running around the house with glee, looking for the Afikomen, finding it, and feeling so much joy when he receives his gelt?

  • Mustafa

    I also have a parallel.

    Ruben is both the simple son and the wicked son. He lacks the wisdom to understand why certain rules are in effect and he willingly serves as a pawn to rich entities that just want to further their own devious interests.

    Bronx Teacher, another question Ruben should answer, has he started working on his administrative certificate yet?

  • ms. v.

    How does this comment further discussion of the issues?

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    It doesn’t. I thought it was funny.

    But this analysis does further the conversation……

    http://southbronxschool.blogspot.com/2011/04/ruben-brosbe-and-elizabeth-green.html

  • GC

    Is there an actual issue here being discussed? Just what is Ruben’s point? Is it supposed to be a revelation that good teachers try to meet the needs of all children in their care, that this is a difficult yet essential task? That students have different learning styles, that the quiet child is actually not being engaged? Veteran educators knew this long before Ruben came on the scne.

    Re: the simple son section: “Rather, these students populate our classrooms because of a number of factors that yield huge gaps in reading, writing and mathematical skills.” E4E, Klein, Tilson, Rhee, Ruben’s sage prophets, blame the teacher for all of these factors, and discount the “inconvenient” socio economic factors, ELL status, poor neo natal care, drug addiction, transient lifestyle, homelessness, lack of a solid nuclear family, crime in low income areas, lack of access to books, cultural issues re: the importance of formal schooling in society etc. Ruben is giving his bit of Afikomen (his columns that toe the Me4Me / faux edu-reform agenda) to Sidney and Friends for future payback.

  • ms. v.

    If one of my students had a history of literally dozens of personally mocking, belittling comments towards another student in my class, over the course of a few weeks or months, I’d call that bullying. “I thought it was funny” would do nothing to excuse the behavior. If that student made a comment about imagining a Jewish student running around gleefully looking for gilt, I would wonder also whether that student was aware of antisemitic stereotypes about Jews and money. Funny?

    Here’s what the NYC DOE website has to say about these behaviors in the classroom:

    “Harassment/discriminatory behavior is one or more negative acts committed by one or more students against another student or group of students. Harassment or discrimination can be physical, verbal, or social. … Verbal harassment refers to teasing, taunting, or insulting someone. Social harassment refers to the use of peer rejection or exclusion to humiliate or isolate a person.

    Written or graphic material, including graffiti, containing comments or stereotypes that are either posted, circulated or are written or printed on clothing or circulated on the Internet (cyber-bullying) that are derogatory of others because of their race, color, ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation or disability;”

    It doesn’t matter how sharply or intensely you disagree with someone: you do NOT have the right to bully him or her.

  • http://www.accountabletalk.com/ Mr. A. Talk

    ms. v: In case you haven’t noticed, we aren’t children and you aren’t our teacher. You have no reason to be chastising us for what you believe is our bad behavior. You are free not to read my posts or any other posts here that you find disagreeable.

    Ruben has chosen to make himself a public figure by writing articles for GS and the NY Post. Public figures are open to discussion, and, yes, ridicule. If Ruben would like to go after me on his blog, he’s welcome to do so. The internet is not your classroom and you are not in charge.

    Frankly, I’d like to know how much skin you have in this game. I think we can infer from your posts that you are a charter school teacher. If so, why is this really of interest to you? Whatever may transpire between E4E and the UFT will have little effect on you.

    While I stay anonymous, there are a lot of details about me out there. I’ve got over 20 years in the DOE, and I am disgusted that union scabs like Ruben are given such a huge voice by GS and other media outlets. So that’s the skin I have in this game. What about you?

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    Did I ever day he was going around chasing money? No, I said chasing around looking for the Afikomen. The Afikomen is a half-matzoh. It is hidden. For some reason as a child, my Uncle Sol would always hide it in his front pocket. But I digress. The child who finds the Afikomen is awarded a few dollars.

    I am shocked that as a NYC school teacher you can be so ignorant, and speak so ignorantly of a tradition that is several millenia old. Shouldn’t you have the skills to inform yourself if you do not have the facts?

    How many Mel Brooks or Woody Allen movies have you watched in which the Jews are the butt of jokes?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybuKQf9p5jg&feature=related

  • QueensMom

    That’s right, Mr. A. Talk, you’re not one of ms. v.’s students. You are an adult, which makes your behavior in this forum even less excusable.

    I am a parent who reads this site with interest frequently and I am often appalled at many of the commenters, you and BronxTeacher included. Aren’t teacher supposed to model good behavior? I hope that my sons’ teachers are teaching them that it is possible to have an intelligent, respectful public debate without resorting to mockery and offensive insults.

    There is always a reason to stand up to bullies. That is something that I hope my children’s teachers are teaching them also.

  • GC

    Ms. V: Ruben chose to, at Gotham, in the Post, and in other forums, actively work against the seniority rights of thousands of his UFT coworkers, his colleagues, his friends, and ally himself with folks who want to end teaching as a career, layoff people unnecessarily, fire ATRs, etc.

    The rights he currently enjoys as a teacher are a result of his senior colleagues, current and retired, being willing to go on strike, authorize a strike, protest, give money to COPE, pay union dues, walk a picket line. There are still a few Tier I folks (and Tier IV also!) who could educate him about what it means to be in a union and how unions “lift all boats’ but he has demonstrated time and time again an unwillingness to listen to civilized discourse or engage anyone who doesn’t agree with him. The group he has chosen to associate with go drinking with Klein and take money from the Gates Foundation and DFER, which seek the destruction of worker rights and teacher unions, the replacement of teachers with technology, and the advancement of the aims of a cabal of billionaires that can’t stand it that somewhere there are folks with medical care and some financial security in their old age. Are you surprised that people have an extreme reaction to him, when he is screwing around with their jobs and their lives? He is a defacto scab. Ms. V, you went into this looking for an argument, saying that you expected people to come after you, no one did, so you put out this nonsense about discrimination. Bronx Teacher is not an anti-Semite, and he is definitely not a student, and who cares what the DOE says about anything? Ruben made his bed, and he has to lie in it now. If any guidelines are being violated, the editorial staff at GothamSchools has shown in the past that they are willing and able to remove inappropriate comments, it is within their purview, not yours, to moderate the discussion here. You are entitled to your views, but this is not a classroom, Ruben is not a child, and you don’t need to protect him. I agree with you and John G. that things could be more civil, but I understand, as perhaps you should try to, what has shaped the views of Mr. A Talk and Bronx Teacher and myself as well- they also feel frustrated and angry that someone of such dubious ability and scant experience is given such a forum to express his poisonous DFER sponsored propaganda and so lend legitimacy to these views.

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    Queens Mom-

    Here is the fallacy. I am only a teacher from Mondays-Fridays, 8 30 PM to 3 30 PM Once I have honored my commitment to my school and its students I cease being a teacher, and I become John Q. Public, or Bronx Teacher. I have on occasion swigged beer, I went to see Rush last Sunday and was quite vocal and energetic. I was wearing a Vapor Trails 2002 Tour shirt, and playing the air drums I hit every fill created by Neil Peart.

    Tonight I have my son and three boys over watching RoboCop. We all enjoyed the blood and gory. In fact, RoboCop is an awesome allegory to what is happening in education now.

    My 2nd year teaching, I had on too many Jägermeister , spewed all over my best man’s shoes and crawled into a fetal position on the Hutch.

    I also enjoy the 3 Stooges, Curly only, love kittens, and am a huge fan of South Park.

    I am a teacher, I am also human. Just like you, I pee standing up.

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    Queens Mom-

    Here is the fallacy. I am only a teacher from Mondays-Fridays, 8 30 PM to 3 30 PM Once I have honored my commitment to my school and its students I cease being a teacher, and I become John Q. Public, or Bronx Teacher. I have on occasion swigged beer, I went to see Rush last Sunday and was quite vocal and energetic. I was wearing a Vapor Trails 2002 Tour shirt, and playing the air drums I hit every fill created by Neil Peart.

    Tonight I have my son and three boys over watching RoboCop. We all enjoyed the blood and gory. In fact, RoboCop is an awesome allegory to what is happening in education now.

    My 2nd year teaching, I had on too many Jägermeister , spewed all over my best man’s shoes and crawled into a fetal position on the Hutch.

    I also enjoy the 3 Stooges, Curly only, love kittens, and am a huge fan of South Park.

    I am a teacher, I am also human. Just like you, I pee standing up.

  • GC

    Re: the Hitler on Ice video — I recently saw a PBS special in which Mel Brooks discussed why he put Hitler in so many of his movies (even in the cafe scene in Blazing Saddles, where an actor/Hitler says,” Yeah, they lose me after the bunker scene”). “ I was never crazy about Hitler…If you

    stand on a soapbox and trade rhetoric with a dictator you never win…That’s what they do so well: they seduce people. But if you ridicule them, bring them down with laughter, they can’t win. You show how crazy they are. ”
    —Mel Brooks

    I believe that is what Mr. A Talk and Bronx Teacher try to do here and on their blogs.

  • GC

    QueensMom: Someone goes after your husbands’ or your job. He keeps going to the boss to blacken your name after you dedicated many years of your life to the firm, and says you could be replaced by someone cheaper (HIM). Do you a) hug and embrace the man trying to ruin your life b) ask him politely why he is being such a meanie or c) fight
    back to protect what’s yours? The double standard here is obvious, teachers are assaulted everywhere, we are supposed to take it gracefully whether it comes from parents, our colleagues, students, we have no feelings, we are on call 24/7, we have to be perfect all the time, if you prick us we don’t bleed, we are supposed to live at the school, we don’t get to have families or lives, everything is society is our fault, if only we didn’t have a pension, benefits and tenure the three wars our country is involved with would end, the

    budget would be balanced, dogs and cats would happily embrace and the lion would lie down with the lamb. By the way, the folks you are denigrating are standing up to bullies – Bloomberg, Gates, the Walton Family, Warren Buffett, Whitney Tilson, and their catspaws. You know, the 1% of the population that controls the majority of the wealth.

  • http://www.accountabletalk.com/ Mr. A. Talk

    QueensMom, I fully agree that bullies must be dealt with, and sometimes severely. When a union scab tries to take away my job and the jobs of my colleagues by joining forces with billionaires, something must be done. Your view of this situation is so screwed up that you actually think teachers like me are the bullies, and the billionaires and their minions–such as Ruben–are the ones being bullied. Let’s make this clear: I have no power to take away Ruben’s job, and I wouldn’t do it if I did. If someone tried to take away his job unjustly, I, as I member of the UFT, would defend all the rights he enjoys–rights that were earned for him by teachers like me and untold thousands of others who fought for those rights. In contrast, Ruben and his billionaire buddies aren’t quite as noble. They would take our jobs away if they could, to the detriment of the children of the city of New York. They would turn public schools into at will school factories, where the cheapest teachers would work on unending test prep until they finally burned out and left the system. As a mom, you should be fighting against the dismantling of public education. You should be standing up to the bullies who want to take away your child’s most experienced teachers so they can break the union and privatize education in order to make a buck.

    Instead, you choose to be outraged that a teacher dares come here and speak his or her mind. Sadly, I think you’ve watched too many movies in which teachers are idealized figures. As I’ve said before on my blog, there are no Mr. Chips, but likewise there are few buffalo chips. Teachers are people. We have flaws and virtues like anyone else. Much like you.

    I sincerely doubt that you’re worried that your child will stumble upon this site and realize that teachers–GASP–have emotions. You should be more concerned that teachers like Ruben are conspiring to bring an end to public education as we know it. If you want your child to go to school 12 hours a day, 12 months a year, with a never-ending test prep curriculum, then by all means, side with Ruben. He will gladly give you that. He and his billionaire sponsors would love to give you that.

    The union teachers here would prefer that your child receive an education. That is what we are fighting for. We are standing up to the bullies and the billionaires. We are David standing up to a very strong and wealthy Goliath. Perhaps you should wonder why you’re calling the guy with a slingshot a bully.

  • Mustafa

    By the way, my comment was meant to be a springboard for reflection. It’s great that a teacher reflects on ways to reach his/her students, it’s even better when a teacher reflects on their own ideals.

    RubE$En, wink.

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