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Classroom tales: A diary

False Choices In The Seniority Debate

It’s been a busy week with plenty of stories to share. There was the student of mine who transferred schools abruptly without a chance to say goodbye, my post-observation meeting, and the girl who basically extorted $20 from another student. In all it hasn’t been the easiest week back from break. But as I’ve read the discussion surrounding layoffs and seniority, there’s a recurring thread of half-truths that’s too frustrating to ignore.

As usual, both sides of the issue are guilty of manipulating facts in favor of emotion. On the one hand, the argument that seniority-based layoffs, aka “last in, first out” (LIFO), will disproportionately hurt high-poverty schools seems overblown. On the other side, people arguing that without seniority, principals will simply fire the most expensive (e.g. most senior) teachers, are exaggerating the incentive to do so.

Most frustrating about the discussion surrounding LIFO however, is the false insinuation that if we don’t stick to LIFO, therefore laying off the least senior teachers, we’ll lay off the most senior teachers instead. There are legitimate arguments about the changes being proposed. However, the idea that ending LIFO will put senior teachers on the chopping block instead is untrue, and it’s much more harmful than some of the others floating out there, because it fundamentally distorts the conversation.This is not what Educators 4 Excellence’s white paper on LIFO, nor the Flanagan Bill passed by the State Senate earlier this week, propose to do. (I am a member of E4E, and I took part in the group’s lobbying effort in support of Flanagan’s bill.)

While there are some differences between E4E’s policy paper and SB3501, they would both change layoff policy essentially by first losing U-rated teachers, teachers with chronic absenteeism, and teachers who haven’t found jobs after six months in the Absent Teacher Reserve first. This doesn’t mean we’d just go out and summarily fire any teacher with 20 years experience, but that’s precisely what advocates of the current seniority system are arguing.

These same advocates are criticizing opponents of LIFO of trying to pit teachers against each other, young versus old. But in skewing the actual outcome of ending seniority, these LIFO supporters are doing exactly that. They would have us believe that those of us who want to end LIFO have no respect for senior teachers. Their view: Seniority supporters respect their elders. We junior teachers value only our own jobs and everyone else, especially those veterans, can go to hell.

As someone who has relied upon the help of teachers with more experience than me since the day I started Teaching Fellows’ training, I resent this implication. I have the utmost respect for the teachers who have dedicated their careers to education. Teachers like these have been invaluable to my growth and survival in the classroom. But these are not the teachers who would lose their jobs if LIFO ends, and to say otherwise is flat out wrong.

Instead, if the Flanagan bill becomes law, we will lose teachers rated Unsatisfactory, teachers who haven’t found employment after six months, and teachers who can’t be bothered to show up to work. If you want to argue that these teachers should keep their jobs over thousands of newer jobs, that’s fine. But forcing me to defend a choice between new and senior teachers isn’t just unfair, it’s false.

  • Mustafa

    Ruben, I’m sorry to say this but you are ignorant.

    I hope you never have that one student that flat out refuses to learn that lesson you are trying to teach, even when faced with overwhelming evidence that supports what you are trying to educate him/her on.

    Ruben, you’re that student.

  • Ruben

    At this point you haven’t provided “overwhelming evidence” but rather only anecdotal evidence. I’m not arguing that unfair u-ratings don’t exist. That would be stubborn and false. What I’m arguing is that the majority of u-ratings are fair, and therefore to layoff the 2,000 or so u-rated teachers before laying off 2,000 or more teachers who have never been rated u would be a more fair system. I understand your disagreement.

    There seems to be two different arguments here, and I’m not sure which yours is. If your argument is that the majority of u-ratings are arbitrary and capricious that needs to be supported with evidence beyond a few samples. If your argument is that unfair u-ratings are a minority, but that it would be wrong to layoff the u-rated teachers as long as they include any teachers with an unfair rating, that’s a fair point of view, it’s just not one I agree with. Whichever is your argument, I don’t think it’s fair to call me ignorant. I just disagree.

    Nobody in the GS community is omniscient. So you can’t claim to know whether all the u-ratings are fair or unfair. Using a few anecdotes doesn’t prove your point. Unfortunately it seems like it would be very hard to find hard data on the percentage of u-ratings that are overturned or even claimed to be discriminatory/arbitrary/etc. In the absence of this, I think we just have to agree to disagree. I think it’s more unfair to fire thousands of teachers with s ratings, just on the basis of seniority. You think it’s more unfair to fire thousands of teachers with u ratings, on the basis that some of them weren’t fairly rated.

  • Mustafa

    Ruben, you’re wrong on U ratings, you’re wrong on ATRs, you’re wrong on absences. I’m not going to, nor do I feel the need to provide “overwhelming evidence” to you. I’m merely suggesting, as are many others here, that your limited time in the system has not enabled you to see the picture. I think you need to experience much more before you take such an active role accepting money from Gates and Broad to champion against certain sfaeguards that are in place to protect peoip from arbitrary and caprious whims of the toadies at Tweed. Essentially, like the mayor, and regardless of what you write here, your organization is discounting the real life experiences of veteran teachers. You’re trying to counter good points with broad stroke assumptions and in the few instances where you try to explain why, you’re showing that you do not have a full grasp on the issues.

    It’s wonderful that you’ve created such an open and public GS profile Though some people here remain anonymous, I’d remind you that you might be engaging in conversation with others that many in the educational community might consider respected experts in their field. That’s not an honor that you, nor Evan, nor Sidney has earned yet in your limited time. Though you’ve dubbed your organization Educators for Excellence, what do you guys really know about excellence in the field of education? Do you consider yourselves excellent educators? If you do, well, that’s certainly arrogant.

    BTW, how much are Evan and Sidney being paid? Care to answer that one?

  • Mustafa

    Apologies for the typos in my last post, I can’t post without DISQUS creating a bar in the middle of the typing area that prevents me from seeing a big chunk of what I am writing.

    I’ll say it again, DISQUS sucks.

  • floyd99

    Thanks Ruben!
    I have no U’s and great pass rates for my students on Regents exams. I’m a science teachers, we are hard to come by. I am also an international teacher so I will most likely have to leave my apartment/home, my friends, and my life I have been building in NYC because of the new rules. I have necessary certification requirements for where I came from, 2 degrees, one honours science, one education, and am working on my 3rd, a masters degree. Because I have not finished that masters yet, it appears as if I will be laid off and have to leave this country at the end of the year. I have enough years and all satisfactory ratings as well as tenure, but, that won’t apparently be enough. As the mayor has said, E4E has played a role in these changes, and, although this wasn’t specifically in E4E policy recommendations, you have supported changes to the rules so are guilty for all of them. How protecting a first year teacher over me is reasonable at this point, and, how this falls in line with keeping the best teachers, I have no clue.

    When I was a kid, I used to get in trouble at times not for actually doing something I shouldn’t have done, but, as my father used to say, hanging out with people who did something wrong. He called it guilty by association. You Reuben, are guilty by association for supporting Bloomberg and all the unfair firings that are about to happen and upheavals of people lives. You are not qualified or experienced enough, nor were the other E4E people, to have a real say in these things, nor to truly understand the negative consequences. You clearly have no conscious and will look at things like this as collateral damage, i’m sure, although, for some reason, the collateral damage of seniority rights were a terrible thing, clearly situations like mine don’t matter.

    Because I know my message will be erased if I actually say what I think about you and your backstabbing E4E folks, I will bite my tongue. As Mustafa said, you will never learn the reality or admit fault here, that’s obvious enough after all this time, so, I can’t imagine that you will feel any remorse or have second thoughts.

    Again, I know you are going to make the excuse that E4E did not suggest this point, but, the organization was used as a front/media tool for Bloomberg to make it look like teachers supported the horrific changes that are about to take place that will ultimately destroy the teaching profession as well as have serious negative impact for folks like me. Bravo Ruben. Bravo.

    I uprooted everything after having NYCDOE come to my country and I moved to a new city/country where I didn’t know anybody to work in urban schools. As I am on a work visa with the board of ed, I do not have the option of waiting around to see if a position will get called back.
    Thanks backstabber. I’m glad I’ll get laid off so that you keep your job that you’re going to quit anyway to go work for Rhee. Thanks.

  • Pingback: You Don’t Stand With Us: My Response to an #EDUSolidarity Highjacking Attempt « Outside the Cave

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