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The real but misunderstood incentive to remove senior teachers

Do New York City principals have a financial incentive to get rid of veteran teachers?

That’s been a fiercely disputed accusation as the teachers union and city have traded shots over layoff threats in recent weeks. While the union embraces the claim as evidence that senior teachers need to be protected from layoffs, Chancellor Cathie Black denies that senior teachers are penalized at all.

Black recently told the Staten Island Advance that if a highly paid teacher is let go, a principal can go out and hire another veteran teacher without any repercussions. ”It really doesn’t matter if it’s a more senior teacher making more money, or a younger teacher,” she told the newspaper. “It doesn’t change the equation. I think the UFT has really distorted that.”

The dispute is even more confusing because different Bloomberg administration officials appear to take different positions on the matter. According to a report in the New York Post, one of Black’s deputies has described the incentive structure as a problem and floated a plan to eliminate it, at least temporarily.

So again: Do New York City schools have a financial incentive to get rid of veteran teachers?

The truth is that the rules do favor less experienced and thereby cheaper teachers — but principals are so limited in firing decisions that it’s hard for them to maneuver more expensive, veteran teachers off of their budgets.

Currently, teachers are laid off citywide based on how many years they’ve been teaching and how desirable their license area is. Excessing — when principals have to cut teachers because they can’t afford them — works the same way except it happens by seniority within the school, not the entire city.

But a change introduced in 2007 to the way schools are funded inserted a new dynamic into the teacher job market.

Fair Student Funding

Since 2007, New York City has used “Fair Student Funding,” a formula that allocates money to schools based on how many students they have and what their students are like. Schools get different amounts of money if they have more special education students, how severe their students’ disabilities are, how many of them qualify for free or reduced lunch, and a host of other factors.

Though some teachers’ salaries are paid for centrally (such as speech teachers) and others are paid with Title I money, schools pay for most of their teachers with their Fair Student Funding dollars. Those funds are the least restrictive and the most abundant.

Before Fair Student Funding, schools paid for their teachers differently. Based on a teacher-to-student ratio, the city would centrally decide that a school needed to have X number of teachers. To fill those X number of positions, principals could hire low or high-salaried teachers — it didn’t matter which — because they were only charged for the citywide average salary.

If a school in Staten Island hired teachers in the $80,000 a year range and a school in the South Bronx hired beginner teachers making $40,000, both schools were charged the same amount of money per teacher — the average of $60,000. This system tended to hurt schools in poorer neighborhoods that couldn’t attract more experienced teachers. They had to share the costs of other schools’ experienced teachers, but they didn’t benefit from those teachers’ work.

When Fair Student Funding was put in place, city officials wanted to charge schools for the actual cost of their teachers, but they didn’t want to abruptly switch from one system to the next. Doing so would have the reverse effect of the formula at the time: it would hurt the schools where experienced teachers wanted to work by having teacher salaries swallow up their entire budgets. Instead, they moved to a “middle ground,” as a city document describes it.

That middle ground means that the city no longer gives schools money for teachers according to a formula. Fair Student Funding dollars form a pot of money for covering teacher salaries, and the effective price of each teacher is not the average salary of all teachers in the city — but the average salary of all teachers at the school.

Shifting the average from the city to the school changed some of the incentives working on principals. If before principals didn’t have to consider a teacher’s salary before hiring her, now they have reason to pay attention.

Today, School A and School B are no longer paying the same amount per teacher. Imagine they both have annual budgets of about $1 million and 10 teachers each. School A has more senior teachers, bumping its average teacher salary up to around $75,000. Meanwhile School B has newer teachers, keeping its average teacher salary down around $50,000. School A has to spend $750,000 a year on teacher salaries, whereas School B is spending $500,000, freeing up money for after-school programs and classroom supplies.

Consequences

The funding structure means that schools hit hardest by layoffs will also see their average teacher salaries jump the most — and their ability to hire new teachers from the pool of those available within the city will suffer.

If teacher ratings become a factor in layoffs, union leaders worry that principals might have a financial incentive to give veteran teachers low ratings, even if those teachers wouldn’t otherwise merit them. This would bring down the cost of all the teachers in their building for the following year, when budgets could become even tighter.

To some principals, the suggestion that their hiring is driven by dollars is an oversimplification.

“Your only consideration can’t just be money,” the principal of a new school told me.

“A good teacher, a teacher who has a history of experience and knowledge to share and can be a mentor — they’re worth every penny. The difference in salary is negligible when you’re looking at what they’re really bringing to the table,” she said.

But schools’ average teacher costs, and the incentive principals have to keep them low, are enough of an issue that some people in the Department of Education are trying to think of a solution. In a memo to Chancellor Black, Deputy Chancellor John White proposed freezing schools’ average teacher salaries for the next two years.

“That would mean schools that let go of highly paid staff would see no greater flexibility in spending than they see now,” he wrote.

Under White’s plan, the incentive to lay off expensive teachers would be put on hold for two years because during this time, regardless of who principals lay off, their average teacher salaries would remain the same. His plan is still under consideration, a city official said.

A Manhattan principal, who asked to remain anonymous, said that the problem with this idea is that few principals believe the DOE will maintain the same policy for two years. If principals lay off teachers with no eye to salary and then the city changes its mind, schools could find themselves with tighter budgets and high teacher costs. “There’s not much trust between us and the DOE,” she said.

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    Thank you Anna for that hard hitting, exclusive report! See, journalism is neat.

  • Anonymous

    “When Fair Student Funding was put in place, city officials wanted to charge schools for the actual cost of their teachers, but they didn’t want to abruptly switch from one system to the next. Doing so would have the reverse effect of the formula at the time: it would hurt the schools where experienced teachers wanted to work by having teacher salaries swallow up their entire budgets. Instead, they moved to a “middle ground,” as a city document describes it.”

    Actually, the DOE backed down because of huge protests by the UFT and parent groups. It was a big story at the time. I think it was before GS was created.

  • Winston

    I think the real headline of this story should be “Cathie Black Doesn’t Understand School Funding” The author of the article seems to find that Black doesn’t understand at all system by which schools are funded,

  • Smith

    They took a system that was unfair to students and replaced it with one that was unfair to both students and teachers. Can you think of any other profession where you become less marketable as your skills increase?

    It seems obvious that a major flaw in Fair Funding is that it fails to acknowledge that the salary curve is shaped differently than the curve that measures one’s improvement in performance that comes with experience. I’ll bet most principals would rather hire two pretty good, newish teachers than one outstanding senior teacher if the cost is the same. Could Klein not have known this?

  • nyc principal

    another factor to consider here is that the average teacher salary formula described here operates on a 1 year lag time, so next year’s avg teacher salary for a school is based on the average teacher salary of teacher’s currently working in the school this year. so layoffs or no layoffs, next year’s average teacher salary has already been determined (although school’s do not currently have that information).

  • http://www.gothamschools.org Elizabeth Green

    Thanks for adding that, Leonie. It was actually before I came on the beat, I think, in 2007.

  • Paul

    The union argues that we need to pay more experienced teachers a higher salary so that we can keep these better more experienced teachers. So a principal should presumably want to keep those more senior teachers if they are in fact better. However, if there is an expensive 20 year veteran who isn’t any better than a teacher with 2 years experience, then shouldn’t the principal lay off the 20 year veteran instead of the teacher with 2 years of experience? Suppose that one dentist was as good as another but half the price of the other dentist, wouldn’t you go to the cheaper dentist? Why shouldn’t cost be a factor in retention/layoff/hiring decisions? Doesn’t it make sense for our principals to take the limited money they have and figure out how to get the most bang for the buck?

  • http://twitter.com/SLazarOtC Stephen Lazar

    Someone please correct me if I’m mistaken here, but wasn’t there an added layer to the compromise that played out? My memory is that schools would be funded based to some extent on the teachers they had at the time of the implementation of Fair Student Funding. Therefore, schools with lots of expensive teachers would have extra money preserved in their budgets in perpetuity, even if these teachers left.

  • John G

    Paul,
    This is a ridiculous scenario. I have never heard of a 20 year veteran teacher being LESS effective than a 2nd year teacher (assuming both to be competent, of course and if one is not, then clearly he or she should go regardless of years in. Any good principal has tools to run him/her out of the building).
    I never heard of or read one study that supports this ridiculous notion that a 2nd year teacher is better than a 20-year vet. There are studies that show it takes 3 years just to get good and another 4 to reach your peak, but that peak only levels off after 10 and the effectiveness is never shown to diminish.

    I have never seen one shred of proof of these assertions .. yet every time I open a paper or click a link, I see this premise repeated again and again (and again) and it’s never challenged (save by ONE reporter form this website) by a journalist. It’s reminds me of the ‘Big Lie’ in the gear up to the Iraq war. It seemed to make sense to people, so they made up their minds, regardless of facts.

  • http://jd2718.wordpress.com Jonathan

    Steve, you are right, but there were more changes and deals and broken deals than that. The article conflates, among other things, the introduction of Fair Student Funding with the end of unit costing (2004?). It also misses the move from seniority and SBO transfers to “Open Market” transfers, which began the process of giving a cost incentive to the hiring of lower paid teachers.

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    What do you use to determine who is a better teacher? But your dentist analogy is quite interesting. Say there is a dentist on the Upper East Side. For arguments sake, a Park Ave, dentist. And now let’s say we also have a dentist on 151st St and Melrose Ave in the Bronx. The both have the same education. The Park Ave dentist’s patients are affluent and are able to afford to see the dentist the recommended 2X a year. The dentist on 151st St is lucky to see the same patient, 2X in four years. The Park Ave. dentists patients have all been able to afford braces and this cuts down on dental problems. Not many of the 151st St dentist’s patients have had braces so dental problems are persistent. The patients on Park Ave come to the dentist at the first sign of problems. There problems are promptly addressed. The 151st St patients let tooth problems linger because they can’t afford to go to the dentist and finally when the problem gets so acute they go, but the tooth or teeth has to be pulled.

    Who do you think has the better teeth? Both dentists are just as good. Just as educated.

  • kate

    John G,

    Are you an educator? It seems like you are not to me.

    I know of many 20+ year veteran teachers who are no longer interested in improving their practice; I’d call what they do closer to babysitting. I’d choose a hard-working and smart second year teacher to educate my child over one of them any day.

    As for your comment that any good principal has tools to run those teachers out of the building, this just isn’t true. The process is close to impossible to get rid of a tenured teacher, even with thorough documentation. Most districts that pursue tenure charges end up having to drop the case because they can’t afford to carry it for as long as it takes. This drives most principals to ignore the under performing teachers or to move them to a position that will eventually force them into retirement (which is definitely not in the best interest of a child’s education). Our educational system is flawed, for sure.

    I hope you are not an educator. Because, if you are, you’re living blindly to at truth that thousands of teachers see every day.

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    Wow, let’s try this again.

    Elizabeth. Last Friday someone posted person information concerning me here on GS. I emailed Anna Phillips and the response I got was, “The comment you flagged doesn’t violate the GothamSchools comment guidelines. It’s mean-spirited, but so are many of the comments, unfortunately.”

    I asked you several times to address the point and you refused. So since that has happened I will ask you here.

    #1 Is this standard operating practice of GS to allow the personal information of posters to be published? If not, is this in the TOS? And if not in the TOS, does GS condone such conduct?

    #2 Several weeks ago you announced the new system coming our way. One reason for this new system was to cut down on the use of sock puppets. I clearly stated the true identity of the sock puppet. Has this been addressed?

    3. My wife still fears for her safety as well as our child’s. What do you recommend I do or say to allay her fears?

    4. Since by not addressing this matter I do have no other choice to assume that GS does condone the leaving of posters personal information. Do posters here now need to worry that even GS will share personal information, names, addresses, IP addresses with DOE, CSi, OSI?

    I think these are all valid points that need to be addressed.

  • Anonymous

    First of all, no principal gets rid of an OUTSTANDING teacher. Senior or junior. Those teachers are hard to find so you better hold on to them when you do find one. And even if some idiot principal did let go of an outstanding senior teacher, they would have no problem finding another job at another school.

    And hypothetically….what is so wrong with a principal deciding that they’d rather have TWO pretty good newish teachers than ONE outstanding senior teacher? Wouldn’t kids benefit from a smaller class sizes if you can get two teachers for the price of one? We’re always talking about class-size right? What’s so wrong with this scenario? After all, our number one priority is to serve the students right?!!

  • queens parent

    I will give you a real life example so you will know that an experienced teacher can be MUCH worse than a new teacher. My child a few years ago had an older teacher who did not want to teach. She decided that 7 years olds should learn on their own at their own pace. Not much learning took place. I had my child transferred out after the principal vviewed her class and saw how she was ignoring most of the children. She started with a class of 20 (it was a converted meeting room classroom) and ended up having just seven children who had started the class with her. A lot of foreign kids mysteriously went back to their home countries and many other parents opted to transfer their kids. The class my child transfered into had 37 children by years end and a great teacher who was able to teach them better than the senior teacher who no longer wanted to teach. By the way, she retired after the year ended. Don’t know if it was her decision or not but nobody was sorry to see her leave.

  • John G

    Kate, I’m am no more blind than I am incorrect -and rest assured, Kate, I’m not at all incorrect. How about yourself. See much lately?

    So just to be clear (and to repeat) assuming competence on both ends: I have never seen or heard of a 20 year veteran teacher being less effective than a 2nd year teacher. What you described to me seems more of a competence issue. Pardon me for living on Earth, but, I was comparing apples to apples; 2 competent teachers. ! 20 year vet and 2nd year vet. Which is more effective? Feel free to re-read.

    You say you’ve heard of plenty of these teachers who at 20 years are LESS EFFECTIVE than 2nd year teachers? Plenty?? And not incompetent??…. I challenge you to ID three by their school and grade taught and tell their stories. Address these issues please: In what way were they less effective than a 2nd year teacher? How did you measure that effectiveness (even a informal, personal way is totally fine by me); what were some of the things you looked for as you decided this 20 year vet was not as effective as 2nd year teacher? Some of the things you noticed that lead you to this conclusion? What did the 2nd year teacher do that was MORE effective? Answer these questions, and then let’s have a conversation; but let’s not presume scenarios that have no fact to them until you do more to try to establish fact than make some vague claim.

    AND FURTHER .. since you’ve taken that side of the position, I challenge you to find the research that Ms. Rhee et alia refer to about how these young teachers being more effective than 20 year veterans (assuming, again in case you’re slow on the uptake, competence on both ends).

    You have spoken on behalf of principals, Kate Are you one? I’m thinking no, Kate. I’ve worked closely with a few and I can tell you, the tools are very much there to run them out the building. Sure, it’s slow. Sure they’re marginalized within the building until they go and sure it takes a strong building leader to do it. But the tools are there. Removal for incompetence is hard but is only one of the tools that I was referring to.

    Lastly, how after reading that post could it possibly strike you that I am anything but an educator? A question like that makes me doubt a person’s intelligence. Honestly, what’d you think I was? A dentist?

  • http://twitter.com/SoBronxSchool Bronx Teacher

    How come none of the people who replied to John G you can’t reply to their comments?

    Anyway, in reply to Queens Parent.

    I

    Do

    Not

    Believe

    One

    Word

    You

    Say.

  • John G

    Anon,
    A smaller class wouldn’t make a new teacher more effective than an outstanding experienced teacher. There are skill sets there that take years and years to develop. Expertise in the content area. Expertise in pedagogy. Expertise in providing emotional growth for students as they learn (a state ethic for us). These things aren’t offset by smaller class sizes.

  • Charterreform

    So then the debate shifts to compensation structures. Pay teachers based on performance instead of years in the system.

    Unfortunately there has been 0 studies that find merit pay to be effective.

    Lets say that you want to go ahead with merit pay anyway because it seems fair. Who is going to pay the max salary for all of the highly effective teachers in the system. I would propose that there are many more teachers that are highly effective than there are teachers currently making max salary.

  • Froggy1

    HOW MISINFORMED YOU ARE! A older, more experienced, highly paid teacher that would be laid off, would lose their ability to find another job within the NYC school system! Look at all those ATR teachers! They did NOTHING wrong YET they cannot get hired for a long term assignment. degrees, much more education then an attorny or

  • Peter

    If we equalize dollars by using average citywide salary schools with more senior teachers, typically in high SES district (D25,26,31) will receive significantly greater dollars per student. Then again, are schools with lower salary teachers using the extra dollars to reduce class size? if not, what? more APs? How are the extra dollars impacting pupil achievement? These are crucila questions that the DoE doesn’t even adk.

  • jocko

    This is what happens in the area of sports, for example. That is the nature of that occupation. Even if you’re the best at what you do, father time catches up with you and the younger athletes take your place. In other walks of life where father time is not as cruel, a person may be good at their job for a lot longer than an athlete. It scares me to think that anytime someone is considered dispensable because we can replace them with someone else who will require less money than the older more experienced one, What are we going to do as a society with all of these older, displaced workers? Each generation is living longer and longer. Shall we euthanize people when they outlive their worth or do we have a better plan than that. Not all people earn enough money during their working years to sustain them for the rest of their lives. Those that do are in the minority.

  • Marisa

    Paul, at the end of the day, no matter what the teacher salary is, schools require administrators who make decisions based on the teacher’s experience, potential for learning, aefficacy for teaching. When adminsitrators do not hire effective teachers with strong experience for fear that the applicant may prove to be a “threat” to the adminstrator in any number of ways, the school and ultimately the students loose out! We need adminstrators who are strong, supportive, and value and repsect what their teachers bring to the building.

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