GothamSchools — daily independent reporting on NYC public schools

Good on you

Is pointing out that Sophie’s Choice was a movie about Nazis out of bounds or crossing the line?

Just wondering…

Until Android comes out with a keyboard that can handle my fat thumbs, I’m going to have a hard time with the whole proper spelling thing.

I like you desire to promote civil discourse. But what’s the nice way to tell SED and Tweed: Hey, you’re killing our kids!

All is well and good with the intentions of attempting to maintain civility but when do we draw the line at making it almost censorship?

I do tend to believe that most of the responses posted in reaction to articles or comments here usually have reasonable grounds…and asides from certain a little left or right field comments, mostly they are valid.

The quest for a ‘balanced’ truth does not occur while attempting to maintain civility, especially if it stymies rightful reaction from the opposition.  The balanced truth is determined in the audience end.  I can see countless examples in history where truth sayers were asked to drink the bitter pill in order to maintain civility…It was only in retrospect when we acknowledge their unfailing truths.  Perhaps it might be possible to count the exact numbers of people who flag something as “inappropriate” and also balance it out to the numbers of people who simply read it and say nothing.

All being said, people who read and dialogue on the web need to understand that there is always an alternative, if something bothers them, turn the other way.

BTW, not to sound neurotic, but I would NEVER post with my true name, as I have seen plenty of Tweed Hacks with an online presence and if the article about Iris Blige is something of a lesson, they do not deserve knowing our names for any sort of purposes.  I do trust the reporters here at GS to maintain confidentiality in the id of posters, especially if they are willing to actually report on illegal conditions at schools that are not resolved by Tweed, City Hall or for that matter the UFT.  Do keep this in mind when you begin implementation of this ‘civility’ policy.  

Yay!! Thank you GothamSchools!! I appreciate the call to civility….

There is a difference between civility and a disingenuous mutual admiration society that induces a coma and reduced traffic to your site. Part of what makes this an important site is that when people spew propaganda (from whatever side of the aisle) there is an intelligent community of educators, parents, and others who call them on it. Some people do cross the line sometimes, but when jobs and the welfare of children are at stake passions run high. I would welcome a moderator commenting on Astraka, Mr. A. Talk, Invictus, Mustafa and Roget’s posts above.

Wow! Gotham Schools now wants posters to use their real names? You have got to be kidding! The DOE is practically begging to get dirt on anyone and everyone. Freedom is never free. However, citizens and civil service workers have the right to say their mind without the fear of punishment. The problem is that folks can’t state their thoughts without fear of retaliation. The only good point is that websites are literally a dime a dozen and if they start to ban folks for stating their thoughts a new website will be set up in an eyes wink.

Well I am disappointed in gothamschools for writinga anonymouse column eventhough they do not accept anonymous columns. Civility is abused on a daily basis by the DOE and all those that want to destroy public schools by using rules used by them. The only reason most educators use gothamschools is because they can speak their minds. In most schools teachers, parents, and students cannot speak their minds without facing retaliation. Wow gothams NYC is not some dictatorship where freedome of speech and expression are supressed. Like Obama said today ideas can suppressed but not stopped because they will come out one way or the other. Goodnight gothamschools sleep on it and do not defeat yourself by restricting speech. The comments of gs have been so tame and i been reading them for more then a year. The nytimes does not evenstop most comments.

I think implementing a login requiring a verified identity, in addition to allowing for a voting system by users on comments, would both be good steps to take. It sounds like a lot of commentators (per above) feel emboldened by their complete anonymity, and they need to understand that there is a vast difference between freedom of speech and anonymous harassment. And commentators above, please note that GothamSchools did not suggest that they would “out” your real identity–you would still be posting under whatever moniker you desire, but you would just be required to have registered your real identity. If you are so paranoid as to think that GothamSchools would turn in your private information to authorities, then you need to go to a therapist and have some good chats.

GothamSchools, I would also like to suggest an addendum to your commenting policy as set forth above. I think commentators should be requested (not required, of course) to keep their commentary focused on the actual content that they are responding to, as opposed to using the comment areas as some sort of imaginary bully pulpit.

Another idea would be to establish a forum area for people to simply dialogue on various topics that is separate and distinct from the commenting area. In the forums, they could get as tangential and raving as they please. This could potentially help to drain off some of the overt demagoguery by allowing them a more open avenue to vent, while keeping the comment areas more focused on productive, engaging conversations on the topics at hand.

I think only people under 25 years old should be allowed to comment.

Asktraka, you kind of missed the point. I’m talking about using your real identity to register, not post.

If the DoE and its minions want to find out who the hardcore posters are, they can easily find it as the Courts sided with the freedom of finding out the sources that NYTimes said were confidential.  To be honest with you, all our dialogue and posting here will me nary difference what the Deformers care and will do to schools in generals.  Their long term strategy has been unveiled…BUT and STILL if GS puts too much of a leash with the civility strategy you will clearly see postings drop precipitously as no one who really cares about the truth being unveiled will bother to post.  

To GothamSchools: Will a moderator address the concerns of many posters above re: free speech, a free flow of dialogue? If this is more than a call for people to tone down the snark and personal attacks, and is instead an attempt to protect a few favored individuals and limit comments by people who are opposed to so called educational reform, , that would be extremely disappointing. And Mark, regarding, “If you are so paranoid as to think that GothamSchools would turn in your private information to authorities, then you need to go to a therapist and have some good chats.”
is it civility to call people paranoid? Maybe if you were a little more involved in the UFT, say as a teacher, U rating advocate, chapter leader, you would realize the resources DOE and friends have, they are not playing games. Cronyism, trumped up charges, and when middle management gets caught doing their dirty work a slap on the wrist wihle careers and lives go down the tubes, that is the S.O.P. (See Blige, Iris) Example: recruiting teachers from Jamaica, Eastern Europe, and the Philipplines, bringing them up on charges as they move up the salary scale, and using immigration law to get around the 3020 A process and have them not only terminated but deported, as immigration law trumps state law, resulting in the loss of their visa and employment. How about going to the extreme of closing large comprehensive high schools just to get at senior and union active teachers, while allowing their private consultants and charter school folks in to make a profit? Maybe you should attend a PEP meeting, or go to the closing hearings of schools the DOE has suffocated into failure. They are most illuminating. You will find that virtually no one in the community wants them closed, not parents, not kids, not politicians, not community leaders. These people are ruthless and will stop at nothing to get what they want, I absolutely believe that people will face retaliation for going against the DOE openly. I have seen it happen, I speak from experience.

Mark my remark was two-pronged. You conveniently ignored the main part of my post. Let’s see if you can figure it out. By the way, Gotham schools has my email already. It is not very difficult for them to figure out who I am.

Do you ever vote in any any election? Why is there privacy in the voting booth?

GC

You’re completely right, I did not aid in the cause of civility by the use of “paranoid” as a criticism–I apologize! I apologize as well to the members of this board who feel that it was directed at them, as well as to Joe, to whom I leveled it directly. That’s certainly not the way to foster goodwill.

About the power of the DOE, I don’t necessarily disagree with you. What’s funny about a lot of the commentary on these boards is that I don’t necessarily disagree with the overall labor perspectives that are being presented. But as Ms. V noted above, it just gets kind of negative when you feel like you’ll be labeled a “scab/union hack/Klein shill/etc” depending on what you might post if you don’t fit into that narrative that others might unify behind.

I’ve felt appalled by the way some of you have vilified Ruben Brosbe on this board, for example. You may disagree passionately with E4E’s perspectives, and you may feel that their funding sources and meeting practices are questionable (please note, I am not a member of E4E–please don’t attack me!), but the manner in which some of you have constantly and aggressively demonized anything and everything he has said is not only harassment, but a lot of it is frankly sickening given that at the end of the day, we are all educators and we all work hard to give our students what they need. We need to keep that in mind when we criticize each other’s stances–and yes, I just as much as all of you.

Terrible things have been done unto teachers and their students, and continue to be done. And we need to keep the abuse of power and the devastating effects of a deaf bureaucracy in mind. But do we need to hysterically create effigies of all DOE officials in order to make that point? Do we have to call people names if they would support policies that challenge the teaching profession to meet higher standards of performance? Can we rather critique the policies themselves and the way in which they are implemented?

I love debating matters of policy and politics with folks. I don’t like defending myself against attacks on my professional integrity, however, and I’m sure all of you feel the same. So if we can have vigorous, lively debates on issues at the level of policy and politics, without the personal attacks, then we will have succeeded in realizing what a vibrant community grounded in democracy is all about.

I’m working on being less snarky. We can all work on listening more to each other and attacking each other less. Isn’t the whole problem with the DOE that they don’t seem to listen?

Mr. A Talk – Labeling another teacher as the “enemy” is exactly what this is all about. Educators that choose to deviate from the union party line on matters of policy or politics have a right to do so. We have a right to question the principles of E4E, the policies they are advocating, and the manner in which they are taking action. But attacking any teacher as the enemy because they don’t adhere to what we believe in is what swiftly turns a civil debate into a personal attack. It’s hard not to take it personally when you feel very strongly that your job security is being threatened–but that does not justify denigrating any person who chooses to look at those issues through a different lens. Let’s try to debate these issues based on the issues themselves.

I just looked at E4E’s “declaration” online (http://www.educators4excellence.org/forms/declaration) and noted that they recommend “Evaluating teachers through a holistic and equitable system that incorporates value-added student achievement data as one component of effectiveness.” It doesn’t sound like they are recommending that value-added should be the de facto determinant of a teacher’s effectiveness–they’re saying that it should be one measure to look at and use in evaluation. And it will be in any case, because it’s already 20% of the new evaluation system NY State Board of Regents is codifying in a few months. That leaves quite a bit of other measures to be looked at in evaluating teachers.

Some Points:

In the ideological alchemy of Gotham Schools, the actual social violence of closing public schools that have served their communities for generations (based on invalied and politically-manipulated “metrics,” attacking the livelihoods and living standards of the people who have taught in those communities for many years, creating a nomadic population of high-needs students who are pushed from one “failing” school to another, and legitimizing secretly-funded, astroturf organizations such as E4E constitutes “reform,” while verbal criticism of that violence is somehow painted as an attack on civilization itself.

The whole issue of “civility” is a red herring, since the level of vituperation is quite mild, and is much more about narrowing the parameters of permissible debate. I’m all for courtesy and respect, but not when it’s used as means of control. A look back at the history of the civil rights movement will show that the efforts to overcome Jim Crow laws were constantly attacked for their purported crimes against “civility.”

I am not being uncivil when I stand up for my rights in the face of material attacks and dishonest assertions.

Ruben Brosbe has been (rightfully) attacked on this site because of his dishonesty in acting as a mouthpiece for the views of E4E (for one example), while failing to inform readers of his membership in that group. He acknowledged his membership only after it was revealed by other writers, yet Gotham Schools seems to have no problem with the ethics of that, and in fact gives him a most prominent spot to continue his ill-informed, poorly reasoned and deceptive posts.

I don’t want to make this about him, per se, although his behavior is indicative of the larger issue: the powerful are able have their self-interested agendas and rhetoric reported uncritically, with little context and historical background, while those standing up to it are marginalized by accusations of discourtesy.

Gotham Schools, please spare us your sanctimony and faux indignation.

I think that all prospective public school teachers in NYC should read the UFT/DOE contract BEFORE they choose to become teachers. If they do not believe in seniority which is a major component of the contract, then they should not become a teacher in the first place. If E4E members do not like the fundamental aspects of our civil service contract they should become charter school teachers or go into the private sector.

I think Mark’s question should be
answered; exactly how is Ruben powerful?

I think many of us are stunned that he continues to be published so prolifically, although he does have his supporters. It’s not he that is powerful, it is those behind him, providing him a forum.

“Specifically when a website that proclaims itself to be neutral pushes E4E folks to the fore and ignore true grassroots organizations that are working to protect teachers, parents, and students, and actually have those people in its constituency”

How is GothamSchools ignoring “true grassroots organizations”? And what organizations are those? How has E4E has been pushed to the fore?

“Mark, were you in the snow Jan. 27th protesting? Did you attend high school closing charades, where DOE people smugly play with their Blackberries while sticking their fingers in their ears? Do you attend the PEPs? Engage your local pols to help kids?”

I’m unclear as to what your purpose in asking these questions are. The implication seems to be that if I would answer “no” to any of those questions, it would mean that I would be the next straw man representative of all things evil in the world.

I don’t think GS’s wants to get rid of debate, just name-calling, which I have seen on earlier posts. Instead of saying a–hats, just say union-busting. I’ve always thought using profanity and stooping to name-calling is lazy. I don’t think that GS was speaking about many of the bloggers like Michael F., etc., but when some were nasty attacks that had nothing to do with the subject. 

Michael F.: Since you do use your name, I’d love to see writing from you. 

I really get most of my education news from GothamSchools. I’m not one to go on many blogs. This website does seem to be unbiased, for the most part, though I do think Ruben gets a lot of community space. He is considered a “diarist” so that might be why. Maybe just once a week? Arthur Goldstein writes excellent pieces and he’s not on as much, which I just assumed it was because of his time constraints. I’d love to see pieces side-by-side with two authors that don’t agree. 

As the parent of a high school student who has been really lucky with great schools and teachers, I think you guys are missing the point entirely. If you want this space to talk to one another, then fine. If you want to participate in the education and enlightenment of other citizens, including parents, about what you are dealing with as teachers in the NYC public school system, the current climate of comments is not going to help. Many, many parents (myself included despite the luck, and I do mean luck, with the education of my only child) are completely fed up with the DOE. There are areas outside the venn diagram in which parental concerns conflict with teacher concerns. But there are many, MANY other areas in which the Gotham Schools commenting section could help parents and teachers see where their concerns intersect and work together for change. It doesn’t work that way now, and it’s a shame. If you want to see what parents are worrying about (beyond what you can see in your classroom and your school and what you read through the filter of newspapers), go to insideschools.com/blog and read some parent comments. Yes, there is common ground; yes, parents, teachers, AND STUDENTS are being screwed by the DOE the way it works now.

GC – food for thought! Thanks for taking the time to go in depth for me, I appreciate it.