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The only thing I agree with is that Mulgrew stated that ATR’s should be placed in open vacancies. This was the way things worked before the 2005 contract and I never saw a big problem with that system. The fear that I have is two fold: 1) LIFO laws could be changed by the current legislature. 2) New York State will make the massive anticipated cuts to education as expected. Do I see LIFO being changed? Possibly, but probably not. Do I see massive cuts to eduction coming from the state? Yes. If these two situations take place it will be the “perfect storm” to destroy civil service teaching in NYC. Oh yeah, I don’t know why Mulgrew needed to speak to E4E in the first place. E4E claim 1,600 teachers as members. However, that leaves about 74,000 UFT represented professionals who could care less about E4E and their union busting agenda.

Sounds very like what is happening within the ranks of the GOP, with a faction of the GOP being moderate, more traditional and those in the maverick, radical ranks garnering all the noise, all the publicity…The Tea Party faction.  

I have seen more than a few rookie teachers characterize the teacher’s union as an outmoded institution that protects old timers and their ‘lazy X.s”  but when push came to shove with the administration and they became tenured (within 5 years time), they surely used the shield of the union to their benefit.  

Union membership is more like a catastrophic insurance, preferably not used frequently but live saving nevertheless.  

Regarding Mulgrew’s statement, “”Klein told me before he left, ‘I’m going to pit new teachers against older teachers and I’m going to do it by trying to make it look like we’re doing layoffs,”

I have the following questions.

1. Was this conversation ever mentioned at a D.A.?
2. Was this said before Bloomberg’s election or after?
3. Did Mulgrew ever have a meeting with the ATRs?
4. What exactly did Mulgrew accomplish by meeting with E$E?
5. Why is he avoiding Philip Nobile’s questions?
6. Why doesn’t Mulgrew have a meeting with the other city unions to discuss a common strategy to preserve LIFO?

The newish teachers (we don’t have many) in my school understand that is important to have last in first out because they will eventually benefit from it.  These e4e people sound like brats that want what they want and don’t look to the future.  I bet it’s a stepping stone and teaching is not in their ten year plan.

They also show loyalty to other teachers and I would shun them if they were in my school.

I challenge any E4E teacher to come into my classroom and tell me they do a better job of educating students than I do. As a 20+ year veteran of middle school, including 15 years in a school that served low income projects, I have put in more effort than many of these whining newbies will ever exert. I also did it at much lower salaries than they earn. Many of the rights they enjoy, teachers such as myself fought for and won through our dedication to the profession. Now, because through experience and additional education and training I have reached the top of my profession and pay scale, I am expected to go quietly into the night so Mayor Bloomberg can balance the budget he has sacrificed to Wall Street. Here’s a lesson E4E, you are engaging in AGEISM, a discriminatory practice subject to prosecution. Instead of writing white papers stand with your colleagues and demand that there be no layoffs. Demand that our society fulfill its obligation to its children and not to Wall Street, Big Business, Big Banks and foreign wars. E4E should be ashamed of themselves. They are the root of the decay in the teaching profession and will be the downfall of public education. By the way, take away the Gates funding and let’s see how far E4E gets, just like we did our jobs with no extra funding.

How much did these E4E teachers get or were promised to come out about this (not necessarily monetarily)? They are free to go to charter schools and teach without the threat of LIFO or layoffs. Their conversation was a set up. Total BS. Ask police officers to do the same and see what happens.

I seriously doubt that the figures behind E4E were ever harassed or demoralized enough in order to see the sense of having an old style institution defend what little rights they have….but I do understand what you, Celsio went through.  Sometimes or many times, your dues might not be enough to protect you against despots and wanna be principals in this new dystopian educational system we work in.  I remember talking to a school rep and the first thing he used to ask, “Are you tenured?”  which implied that he was not going to defend the rights or violations of anyone who is not tenured because their positions are so difficult to defend?  

I used to also thing that a Union rep without inherent job protections would not represent the union chapter effectively, after all, if the principal or an attack AP goes after the rep, what can the rep really do?  

The fact is that the union is at its weakest point and there are plenty of things that are working against the letter of the contract being followed, one part being the union and another a Tweed and City Hall that things they can violate the law and contract provisions as they feel like, as in some 3rd world country with a disfunctional government.  

All being said, with all its flaw, it is a flawed Union that defends what little is left of what we once used to have and these rookie E4E have much convincing to do.  Shall we call them ‘collaborators’ or ‘vichies’?  

Anna, how about the real story about how E4E got started?

I stated this in Ruben (Why I joined the E4E) Brosbe’s GS community blog area:

After reading the comments, the only conclusion I can come up with E$E’s agenda why they are pushing to end seniority rule, tenure, and the reduction/elimination of teachers’ pension. I really thought they were fighting to keep their jobs and stay in the teaching professional for many years to come. It’s because they cannot become administrators, policy makers, future deputy chancellors (such as White), or enter the Broad Superintendent Academy within the 5-7 year time-frame of their goals. Please look at all these administrators (principals) who started up schools (public and charter), such as the KIPP boys, Shael Polakow-Suransky (principal to Deputy Chancellors), John White (Deputy Chancellor), Marc Sternberg (info:Sternberg taught in the South Bronx for three years as a member of Teach for America. He then earned an MBA from Harvard Business School and a master’s in education from the Harvard Graduate School of Education before returning to New York City as vice president of Victory Schools, an organization that launches and manages charter schools). And the list keeps going, and going and going! There’s an exception; White never taught. But he sure does make a good puppet for the chancellor and the mayor at these PEP meetings.
So the fear of losing their jobs through layoffs is not because of economic reasons, but a goal-driven pursuit to be out of the classroom, not teaching, but setting policies and demanding that teachers follow those insane policies that make absolutely no sense and only harm children. These E$E cult teachers are looking at the monetary prospectus of their earnings as educrats getting a piece of the charter school/privatization of the nation’s public schools. This is the new bubble! Watch it burst eventually.

^^^And for me to continue as well………In fact “I noticed that…” I am still awaiting hearing from you.

I have sent out repeated requests for not only Ruben, but for Evan and Sydney to appear on The Mind of the Bronx Teacher Internet radio show. For some reason Evan and Sydney refuse to appear. I must at least give Ruben Brosbe credit for responding to comments here at GS. For that I do applaud him.

More baffling is why repeated invites to Mike Mulgrew to appear on my show have gone unheeded. I am more than willing to give him a more friendly forum and though I strongly disagree with the leadership and the direction of the UFT we at least are on the same side. But he decides to spend time with the Hitlerjugend, so he gets what he gets.

I am about to decipher the latest propaganda piece from erstwhile NY Post lackey Yoav Gonen so stay tuned. If you want further reading between now and the posting feel free to check out what I have written in my blog about Evan and Sydney, and find out what kind of teachers they truly were at PS 86.

Just google, “Evan Stone South Bronx School”

I noticed that….  The education bubble, that is a really good analogy.  All fevers and bubbles have to end.  Perhaps it will burst when municipalities realize that they are forced to house countless young criminals that are unable to hold jobs and dropped out of college…all the while, these for profits, Children First enterprises make a killing out of contracts with the districts and cities.  By then, it will have been too late for many of these cities, to undo a crime that is done to a generation of people who had the opportunity, if given the proper education.  

Maybe by then, the wealthy who have profited handsomely from these back room deals, would be scared enough to live in closed gated communities, as it is common in some Latin American countries.  

Meanwhile, the middle and working classes who did not bother to vote or to see the pillage of their livelihoods would ask incredulously, ‘why are things so bad????’  

By then, these corrupt politicians and wanna be educations would have moved on or have found a new escape goat to blame.  

Ruben, I’m not sure anyone *has* argued that 2000 unsatisfactorily rated teachers should keep their jobs over new teachers.  I certainly haven’t.  What I imagine people *have* argued is that the 1000 or so (Cathie Black’s number from NY1 the other night, if I’m not mistaken) satisfactorily rated ATR teachers should keep their jobs over new teachers. 

As an aside, I’m curious as to why no one seems to have suggested some subsidized retraining for ATR teachers.  Many of the ATR teachers were excessed from positions that no longer exist, I believe–vocational subject teachers, for example.  Might it not be a good investment to get these individuals certified as special ed or math teachers, and rather less expensive than, in NYC Educator’s words, the intergalactic recruitment drives of the recent past?  Teachers keep the careers they love, kids are better served…everyone wins.

Just want to say how much i admire the thoughts of ‘invictus’ and ‘sick of bloomberg’(yep, it is wall street and corporate america creating a diversion and a money making opportunity for themselves. Why anyone would think these groups could possibly deserve the benefits they are getting now, are clearly not looking at what they have historically received in way of higher taxes, less loopholes etc), amongst others, due to their larger picture analysis. Also,I find it fascinating to read that there is a young group actually funded by those same arrogant bastards who would see the middle class have all their protections taken from them.

Just to  mention why older teachers with satisfactory rating should have the benefit of being last fired: I believe that in a profession where our employers rely on us remaining lineworkers, that is, remaining teachers our entire careers , we need protection. After all, we could take our education and enter a corporation where we would be moving upwards as we gained more experience. Therefore, we would obtain different job titles and skills, and would be seen as more valuable than the workers lower in the chain due to the specific gained skills and experiences in the jobs we have acquired higher up in the chain. As teachers, we are professionals gaining skills and abilities, yet we are essentially in same job as any new teacher. Therefore , without protection, we may very likely be let go by any principal that either doesn’t like us, or wants to save money. Thank goodness we have a Union to protect us.

Miss Eyre,

I hope I wasn’t using a straw man argument there, but it does seem that by arguing in favor of the current system, people are arguing for U rated teachers to keep their jobs over others. As for the ATR’s, I didn’t mention them, because I don’t know much about their demographics. Retraining for those who have obsolete certifications seems like a win-win. Those ATR’s who declined the certification would then leave the system and those who are re-certified would definitely be helping the system.

I will say though that there are ATR’s who are excessed and make no effort to find other positions, and then become a drag on the system. I don’t know what percentage of ATR’s these teachers represent, but if there was a way of identifying them and removing them that would be much better so that the ATR’s you mentioned, who are stuck in limbo through no fault of their own, aren’t lumped in with ATR’s unwilling to do the minimal amount of work required to find a new position.

Anna Phillips,

Some of the language and phrasing in your article is clearly tilted, consciously or not, in favor of this group.

For example, writing in paragraph one that E4E was “Founded with the goal of injecting teacher’s voices into citywide education policy debates…” is something out of a press release, not unbiased reporting. It implies that the union is not the voice of the teachers, and that this group is somehow breaking through a curtain of silence. Had you written, “Founded with the stated goal…” the article might have shown more critical distance, rather than accepting their claims at face value.

In paragraph three, you write that opponents of the group criticize it “for failing to understand the importance of protecting senior teachers.” This shows a lack of understanding of what seniority is; it is not about protecting senior teachers, but protecting  all employees from arbitrariness when layoffs occur (and in many other instances, as well). That arbitrariness affects senior workers is a fact of life, but it is far from limited to that. Seniority also protects workers from vindictive administrators.

New teachers who intend to make  teaching a career – which clearly does not include the founders of this group, as with so many ed deformers – are also protected by seniority, since if they are laid off it guarantees their right of return when hiring begins again. Your phrasing narrows the scope of the issue, and subtly reinforces E4E’s agenda, which is to pit teachers against each other.

Lastly, you use the loaded term “dodged” to describe what you say was Michael Mulgrew’s evasiveness (not captured on the video) on the question of time limits for ATRs. Tell us, have Mayor Bloomberg or Joel Klein ever been reported to “dodge” a question in the pages of Gotham Schools, or is it only union leaders who do that?

While I appreciate the coverage and the forum GS provides, it is nevertheless unquestionable to me that you have internalized the premises of the conventional wisdom on this issue, and this tendency is repeated often here.  In view of that, the site’s funders don’t need to tell anyone what to say.

thank u michael fiorillo-excellent points

Miss Eyre – regarding your suggestion of subsidized education for ATRs to gain certification in other areas, I suggested this a few months back when there was another “Fire the ATRs!” thread going on, and I agree that this makes sense.

I have come to realize that my Reading certificate is “obsolete”, though when I went into a PD program in Literacy 10 yrs ago, it was a shortage area and we were getting snapped up in our practicums and allowed to start as PPTs, which is how I got my first NYC position. I was a PPT for a few months until I got my certificate. I guess reading is just “soooo 2001″ these days.

Anyway, as an ATR with solid “S” ratings who lost my position (with 2 colleagues) because I did my job too well (all our kids got 2s and 3s on the ELA and the reading department was eliminated because the kids no longer “need” reading), I would be happy to have the opportunity to get another certificate. With three young children and mortgage to pay, money for school is scarce, but I would certainly go for it if there was some assistance. When I worked in the private sector, my company had tuition reimbursement for employees who pursued advanced degrees that would make them more valuable and versatile within the company. Why not providing at least a subsidy to ATRs who have “obsolete” licenses? It just makes sense.

Another issue is that I hesitate to change my license (I am also certified in ELA 7 – 12, but have no City license, just state cert) because with layoffs looming, I hesitate to place myself at the bottom of the seniority list in a position where I have no tenure. All of the UFT reps I have spoken to have advised me to stay under the reading license because that’s where my tenure and years are.

bookworm, yes it’s probably best right now for you to stay in your current license for tenure protections, however, in regard to layoffs your entire service would be counted when looking at you under any given license. Go beyond your building rep and speak to a veteran full time rep, they will confirm this. Also, that’s not a knock on Chapter Leaders, who in my opinion are the noblest of all union reps. They are volunteers with different levels of devotion and training. Afterall, people forget it’s essentially a massive volunteer job where they are already facing the monumental task of being a full time classroom teacher.

Obviously as a parent I have no job riding on this but I want to make a few comments as someone who has children who will be affected by this. First, my children have had very good 1st year teachers filled with enthusiasm and very bad teachers with 30 and 40 years experience. In fact my children have had several teachers who were excellent in their first years become terrible teachers years later as they went into autopilot mode. Recently my youngest had a teacher that everybody has hated for years. She was a teacher that taught in all the classrooms. This year she decided to retire. She turned into one of the best teachers my children have ever had. Of course, it probably had something to do with the fact that she no longer cared. She ate during class and talked on the telephone. But in between that, she really talked to the kids. She led discussions, the kids debated real issues and then ran to the computers to prove their point. My son came home excited, eager to share the class news. I guarantee none of this was part of his curriculum. (No mini lessons or worksheets) But he learned. Years ago another teacher that I had actually asked for because of prior experience, become one of the worst teachers. My son sat and read all day, mostly ignored, with a large segment of his class. When I asked her why she told me that it was not her doing, the principal ordered her to concentrate on those who were in danger of failing. She said she was aware that most of the kids were bored and losing interest but there was little she could do without endangering her job. Obviously there was a reason, but the end result was that my son didn’t learn anything all year and she was a bad teacher. With all the politics going on, it is impossible to tell who are the bad teachers and who are the good teachers anymore. Teachers obviously need some protection, but is it at all different from a boss who doesn’t like you. And certainly all things being equal, those who have more seniority should be the last to go. All I know is that between the principals and the curriculum my children are barely learning and its time the school system go its act together. I don’t understand why they don’t use these ATRs to tutor all the kids that need help. They should be assigned to every school as an extra resource teacher, as an extra classroom teacher, as a private tutor for those falling behind. Let them teach kids one on one or in small groups. Why are they being paid and not utilized? I understand that teachers want to teach a class, but until then they should be in the schools — teaching.

Well you sound like a good mom. The administration lies when they say these teachers are not working. Most are teaching classes full time. Principals use their atr status to tell them that if they work hard they will stay in the school then in the end of the school year they are shovelled around to new schools to be used at the principals pleasing.
Most teachers are micromanaged because of the new small schools. Administrators that were never been teachers or lack experience tell these teachers what they want to see in the classroom. If the teachers refuse they will make the teachers life impossible. The administrators want the teachers to all be on the same page so when visitors come in they can see that teachers are using the same method. I donot understand why Bloomberg blames teachers when teachers simply follow adminstrators orders and programs.

@Mustafa – thanks for the advice. I have heard what you said before. I have also heard that during a layoff situation, I would be considered a first-year teacher under my ELA cert and therefore be first out. I have also heard that I cannot fall back on mt Literacy tenure should I not be granted tenure as an ELA teacher in 2yr (which is a real threat now that a principal who denies tenure to a teacher makes that vacancy exempt from the hiring freeze, therefore opening the door for a cheap newbie), I’d just be out. This coming from building reps as well as reps at my district office. Seems like no one has a straight answer, but everyone agreed that changing my license right now would be a mistake, since it would leave me without tenure protections along with a relatively high salary. I was told by my original CL, who is very up-to-date and proactive, that my best bet is to get a split program with maybe 4pds of ELA and 1 period of Reading AIS/day. I could then stay under my Reading cert. Ironically, that’s pretty much what I am doing now as an ATR – ELA in an ICT class, 1 period of Science (don’t ask why), and the rest AIS reading. But I have been told by admin that they will not appoint me because right now I am free and that, while they would like to keep me, the upcoming cuts make that iffy and they can always just request another Reading ATR next year and have THAT person for free.

Ruben, two points:
there is something disgusting about a completely self interested   group that no one would ever have  heard of were it not backed by  billionaires bent on remaking the entire school system in their image posing as  altruistic  defenders  of children.   

  You write, ” I would like to hear the argument for why the roughly 2,000 U rated teachers in the system should keep their jobs in place of 4-5,000 new teachers.”   Well here’s one:  one of the ways the DOE is undermining the  UFT is  by unfairly U rating chapter leaders, the better to demoralize and terrify entire schools into lamb like docility.  My chapter leader is  one of them.  I know of many others.  You and the organization you are so proud of are helping create an atmosphere where this kind of thing is  increasingly common.  Outside of chapter leaders, do you  really think that the DOE in the age of Bloomberg  and Leadership Academy monsters are  You are being used by the DOE and Gates as shills.  Fo the sake of your very soul, wake up.  You have no idea of what you’ re  talking about.     

Ruben, two points:there is something disgusting about a completely self interested   group that no one would ever have  heard of were it not backed by  billionaires bent on remaking the entire school system in their image posing as  altruistic  defenders  of children.   
  You write, ” I would like to hear the argument for why the roughly 2,000 U rated teachers in the system should keep their jobs in place of 4-5,000 new teachers.”   Well here’s one:  one of the ways the DOE is undermining the  UFT is  by unfairly U rating chapter leaders, the better to demoralize and terrify entire schools into lamb like docility.  My chapter leader is  one of them.  I know of many others.  You and the organization you are so proud of are helping create an atmosphere where this kind of thing is  increasingly common.  Outside of chapter leaders, do you  really think that the DOE in the age of Bloomberg  and Leadership Academy monsters are  in any way to be trusted?  Do you really believe that you are not engaged in helping Bloomberg and Gates and the Walton family undermine the last union of strength standing in the USA ?     You are being used by the DOE and Gates as shills.  Fo the sake of your very soul, wake up.  You have no idea of what you’ re  talking about.     

And then Norm says, “KS: You left the system to save your own hide and run away from the hard work. You shoulda stayed, you coulda been a contender, and a real reformer.”

Pooh pooh, Norm, I’m pre-empting your comment with my own: I’m still doing the work, only more effectively this way.

And believe it or not, troubled kids and families find their way into charters too. Sometimes en masse! It seems like new ACS and shelter cases every week in our charter school lately.

Look everybody, play nice.  E4E was founded by a couple of teachers who are concerned for the kids.  They put them first.  That’s why, with the 160k they have received, they’re going to use that money for the kids, by paying themselves and inviting important people they want to talk to so they can further their career, and, convince people to join them with meals and booze they pay for with this money.  If that isn’t putting the kids first what is?  And, clearly demanding higher salaries for starting teachers at the expense of career educators is also putting the kids first… come on….. we should encourage more folks to come and stay with us for the first 3 relatively ineffective years at the cost of those that stick around to master the craft of teaching.  

So, it’s essentially taken them less than a year to outright prove they are far more self serving and corrupt than anybody in the UFT, and, yet, Ruben is still on here defending the organization. HYPOCRITES.   

Honestly Ruben, I don’t get it, you are either outrageously naive, or, you see the writing on the wall and are on board with the deception.  

You know the old saying, those that can do, those that can’t teach.  Well, those that can’t teach apparently think they can tell other people who can teach how to teach while furthering their careers at the expense of real teachers.  

Go read some real research about what improves classrooms (not the non peer reviewed stuff funded by right wing think tanks).  Ruben, go read about what is working in Finland and get back to us.  Is it union busting?  Is it vilifying a few teachers at the expense of all?  Is it young energetic kids with no experience or master’s or real life work experience who are going to come save those poor kids in 3 years than use the experience to get much more lucrative jobs than teaching?