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What a ridiculous system.

Yes, it’s ridiculous that principals refuse to hire teachers with experience.  As usual the most vulnerable kids will suffer.

I’m glad to see that someone wrote about all the excessed teachers, but it would be nice to see something written about all the secretaries who lose their jobs in order for the principals to keep the teachers and now principals must keep parent coordinators on staff in elementary and middle school. Lets see how many more secretaries are excessed with that ruling from the chancellor about the parent coordinators. The chancellor told principals in May that if high school principals needed to they could excess their parent coordinators, but I doubt that many of the high school principals did. The parent coordinators are too important to principals. The DOE laid off so many school aides already that the only other position a principal could do away with was the position of a secretary. I’m a school secretary with 17 years of seniority and I really like my job and I really liked the school that I worked in. The cuts were so bad this year that I paid the price. Now I have to find myself a position at a school with a vacancy. I went on one interview that I really felt was promising but in the long run I think my age and salary hindered my chance of getting the job. Most principals are young and they don’t want to hire someone older than them or someone with a higher salary when they can hire someone with a lower salary and have them get training to do the job. Now I have to continue trying to find myself a job and there aren’t that many secretary vacancies to go around. The DOE will place me in a temporary school and then it is up to that principal to say whether they want me there or not. I would like to see the shoe be on the other foot. A principal should experience what being excessed is really like. They should have to go around on interviews and be rejected because their salary is too high. The system needs a good overhaul. It needs a good housecleaning from the top down. The Mayor’s puppet should join the unemployment line.

Let’s not forget another category of teachers automatically and punitively dumped into the ATR hole: rubber room folks found guilty at 3020-a hearings or pled guilty via the mandated settlement offerings per Mulgrew’s Munich-style agreement with Klein.

excessed secretary is right. i realize we are not necessary if there are no teachers and students, but there are. and we work just as hard. they are killing off support staff and paying teachers as well as ap’s and principals,some who can’t even be bothered to look for work because they are getting paid anyway. the secretaries are a target because the doe has pink slipped so much dc 37 staff and still plan on more.so now it’s uft support staff. soon the atr’s will be doing our jobs and getting paid top dollar to do it. wait until next week when the doe plans to layoff another 500 school aides.

It is the responsibility of the Chancellor to place teachers in excess (Absent Teacher Reserves-ATR’s) into vacancies that exist in schools. The Chancellor’s policy of authorizing principals to hire who they deem qualified for a positions that has created this problem. In fact, licensing is the ultimate determination of qualification and has been and continues to be in the hands of the Departments Human Resource division. In the troubled economic times confronting New York and the nation, necessity warrants that the head of the school system place qualified teachers within their respective license vacancies. All other rhetoric is just political in nature and should outrage those in the school system and the taxpayer who pays for this true lack of accountability from the administration.

Principals in this blog state that they have to hire from the ATR pool and many do not apply. I’m just wondering why. Could it be that these ATRs have given up because they’ve been rejected so many times in the past? Several colleagues of mine are ATRs, excessed from phase-out schools, and they’ve submitted resumes on the Open Market and nothing. One ATR, a guidance counselor, worked in a small high school located in a large compus for an entire year. Hoping to be hired for a position at the school this year the principal informed her that she must report to the assigned location as per HR Connect because of her ATR status.

I asked her why didn’t hire her. The principal didn’t provide an answer but kept referring her to the HR Connect letter that was sent to all ATRs. I explained to my friend that most principals took advantage of the free labor since ATRs don’t use up the funding in the budget. Since the principal would need to use the budget if hired, her service and hard work is not needed anymore.

Another situation that I’ve heard about from other colleagues is the age factor of the ATRs. A majority of them are on longevity salary steps year 13, 15 or more. Because of the unfair and discriminatory “Fair Budget Funding” formula where a teacher’s salary is taken into account, principals may end up telling HR Connect that there were no “qualified” teachers for those vacancies. It’s a get-cheap-labor scenario out there. Principal post the position(s) hoping to get an ATR that has less than 10 years in the system. When applicants apply for the position(s) and the principal learns that the applicant’s salary would have a big impact on the budget, the principal states that the applicant does not meet her standards and will not fit into the school’s philosophy.

This is what happens when principals are given the free market option and autonomy to hire whom they want. Place all ATRs in every vacant position. The Open Market System does not work! It is biased.

As an ATR for several years I thought I had seen it all. I got word today that all or many ATRs were just reassigned all over the city. Amazing part is nobody bothered to tell me I was reassigned. I just happened to email my payroll secretary, and she said im no longer there. I would have gone to the wrong place on Tuesday. I guess this is how Klein tries to make us miserable. Im also locked out of the Excessed Staff Selection System, as it says im not in excess. Cant check my status, cant look at vacancies.

It is all a big scam by the DoE and the tabloids. The ATRs work a full day, every day. They are in the schools, usually the exact ones that excessed them. They are teaching the same students they always taught. Klein and Bloomberg want you to think they are sitting around eating donuts. Shame, shame on reporters who do not do investigations and just sit and re-write press releases.

Bronx Principal…based on what I’ve read and been told, you may well be the exception. I do not know how experienced you are, I do not know what level of school you lead and those are important factors in all this. The vast majority of your colleagues, from what I’ve seen and experienced, simply lack the experience to be instructional leaders. Your head honcho, Mr. Klein, is not an instructional leader. His image of a Principal is not what it is and has always been i.e. the Principal, master teacher. His image is a Principal is a Chief Executive Officer just like he is. Many of the teachers in the ATR have more knowledgte of education and what works in their pinky than do some of these instant Principals perpetrated on the school by the failed Leadership Academy (again I talk here from experience). Dozens and dozens of excellent teachers I know trying to climb a traditional ladder of advancement have been passed over for these instant Principals. I raised the example of a secondary math teacher above who was told traditional math education has no place in the schools today by one of these instant Principals. And don’t think for one second that many Principals seeing a very experienced teacher come in for an interview, does not want a person who might see through what an empty suit he is. And this is all thanks to the idiotic policies of the unqualified lawyer masquerading as an educator who has done so much to destroy the school system. You know it, I know it, anybody who knows anything about education knows it. Unfortunately, the editorial writers of the tabloids and even the Wall Street Journal drink Klein’s kool aid.

The UFT has no choice but to make it clear that any alteration in the ATR policies is a deal killer, period. And while, as with anything, there are some bad apples in the ATR, the vast majority are competent or more than competent teachers caught in a squeeze where Klein, the puppet of Bloomberg, is trying to get rid of the senior teachers who bring so much to kids. And more power to them if they don’t want to be led like sheep to the slaughter without fighting back.

This is my short experience with being an ATR.  I was told in June I would be excessed in a 5 minute conversation with my principal.  I was never given any official notification other than short e-mails from my principal telling me to attend various job fairs.  On the Open Market it said I was not excessed.  I sent out resumes on the OM and to everyone I knew.  I got one interview.  I never heard back from the principal.  Then I went to a hiring fair.  At the hiring fair I was told my DOE I was not in excess but could enter as a “transfer.”  I got an interview with one school.  I went on the interview at was told that the principal thought I had an English license, not ESL.  He informed me that he had 4 open English positions but no ESL and that furthermore there were no restrictions on hiring ESL teachers.  That was the last I heard.  I tried to log on to the ESSS and my status is not in excess.  I have no access to vacancies.  I sincerely doubt that I will ever get another full time position as a teacher.  I don’t believe there is any principal who will hire me even though I am highly qualified. 

Sounds like a story worthy of some investigation.

Some principals /school staff looking for teachers say ATR’s won’t send or even upload resumes, won’t return phone calls and are not looking to work.

Some ATR’s say they go to fairs and send out/upload resumes but don’t get calls/interviews/offers from schools.

Where is the truth? somewhere in the murky middle?

Could the Talent Office tools be broken?

Bronx Principal, I am a 24 year vet and spent last year in ATR hell. I sent about 100 resumes via certified receipt, directly to principal’s e-mails (receipt of delivery and read received), went to two hiring halls, and met with an HR rep. Through all this I received one call for an interview at 12 pm to come an interview on the same day. I got this message while on the golf course in LI. My golfing partner could not believe it. I was told by two veteren Bronx principals whom I was friendly with that they had to excess and that was true. They also told me I had little chance even with the ATR agreement because these young principals want younger. Finally, I was reassigned to a school where I met a dying breed. A vet principal with ethics. She got the financial bargain per the ATR agreement and a hard working teacher who loves students and has had a great deal of success throughout my career. I have two year left, and will give it my all. As for the hiring system on the computer there were complaints about it’s effectiveness and I didn’t trust it. I do know that if I remained an ATR and were terminated, my attorney and I were ready. Should the union try to sell ATRs out for chump change I would NEVER vote yes nor should younger teachers as that can and probably will be your fate. End of tenure. ATRs who have truly tried to get a position should galvanize and fight legally. Lisa Dolan, maybe an investigation is a good idea. Sadly though, what I think is going to happen is that the newbies will be either go to charters which has and will reduce union membership. Those like myself will leave within the next 5 years under the 55/25 further reducing the union. Newbies hired at non-charters will be denied tenure because they didn’t raise grades enough then fired at will. What is left is a union with these new charter contracts so weak they aren’t worth the paper they are written on. Hedge fund managers destroyed the economy with the mortage scam and now have found a new playing ground to reap millions – the public school system. The result will be the same.

Invictus,

“This ATR fiasco” points to our union’s (Unity) inability to anticipate possible problems arising from the agreements they enter with the DOE. The DOE will take advantage of any possible weakness to destroy tenure and seniority. Our unions impotence borders on criminal.

Where’s the accountability?  How the hell is anyone supposed to know what is really going on here?It’s got to be some of both, but it’s not so hard to see why an “instant principal” would pass on an expensive vet.  I guess people would have to care for anyone to dig into this for real.

Some people are so obsessed with the Leadership Academy–it’s weirdly all they talk about. My current job is to go to lots and lots of different schools. Sure, there are some young principals out there. Some are from the Leadership Academy, some are not. But I meet plenty of principals who went the traditional route. I know lots of principals that have put 15+ years into the system. None of them–no one, no one, NO ONE wants a teacher who doesn’t really want to be there.

When I was a principal, I’d get LOTS of applications for any given job (except for science positions, which are much harder to fill than others, I think). And when my team and I chose candidates, we were not interested in someone who just sent a letter through open hire, didn’t check out our website, didn’t respond to our letter back, didn’t want to come for a demo lesson, and whose only question was about parking.

My job is not to make the system fair for adults, so I don’t really want to argue about Klein and all that. But if you were trying to staff your school and you REALLY DIDN’T CARE ABOUT THE MONEY (why would I lie on an anonymous blog, after all) but you wanted the best for your student, would you pick they young, persistent, passionate, willing teacher who comes out and shows you what he can do with a room full of kids, or would you pick the teacher who doesn’t think he should have to do a demo lesson and is more concerned about parking?

My experience MAY be the exception, and I’m sure that there have been great teachers who were excessed through no fault of their own. So hear me clearly. What I’m saying is that those who think they are entitled are a problem. If they think they should be hired despite doing the minimum to show us their skills. If they think they deserve jobs with parking spaces, when others in this economy are taking what they can get. If they think that age should equal an automatic paycheck. That is the problem.

citizen:
regarding your question.
“would you pick the young, persistent, passionate, willing teacher who comes out and shows you what he can do with a room full of kids, or would you pick the teacher who doesn’t think he should have to do a demo lesson and is more concerned about parking?”

You do realize that your question is already biased. I have seen the young, persistent, passionate and willing teachers that principals have hired but it became my job (without any additional pay mind you) to help them with content and pedagogical techniques. One demo lesson will not show anybody how capable a teacher is. I teach mathematics for many years and I have mentored and helped many new teachers. I am not the exception by any means.

Klein’s complaining about the number of ATRs – he caused this mess and he is the one that keeps making the number of ATRs go up. He keeps closing schools. Why doesn’t the DOE just give the principal of a problem school that is on the verge of being closed the resources to try and turn the school around. Creating smaller schools isn’t always the solution. The DOE should take a good hard look at some of the smaller schools that they have created. How many of the smaller schools are being added to the SURR list? How many of the smaller schools still have low reading and math scores? How many of the smaller schools are having safety and discipline problems? For example there was a middle school in Manhattan that was closed. Three smaller schools were created and placed in that one building. One of the smaller schools that was created is a 6 to 12 school which was already placed on the SURR list. I did my research on the school because I was excessed due to a budget reduction at the school that I have been working at for 8 years and I applying for a vacancy at the school. The three smaller schools are dealing with the same issues that closed the middle school to begin with. Why doesn’t the DOE help principals cover the salaries of pedagogues that are being excessed because of a budget reduction instead of adding to them to the list of ATRs. Klein is just looking for a way to get rid of ATRs, especially the older ones – they cost the DOE too much money. If the DOE would tell principals that they are not responsible for the salaries of ATRs that fill vacancies at their school, the number of ATRs would go down dramatically. I just became an ATR and I hate it. I am looking for a position. I’ve sent out resumes and I have applied online using the Excessed Staff Selection System. Some of the vacancies posted have come off the list without ever being filled because the vacancies are being pulled by principals because they don’t have the money in their budget. I’ve been on one interview. I am so depressed that it didn’t work out. It looked so promising. Age and salary do play a big part on whether you get hired or not. If a principal can hire a person with a lower salary and still get the job done, there is no need for the very experienced person. How many ATRs will find positions this year and then be excessed again next June due to budget cuts. The Mayor has already announced that there might be teacher layoffs next year because the federal stimulus money will run out. That fact alone is enough reason for ATR to sit back and just wait for the DOE to place them in a temporary location. The DOE also says that they have a number of vacancies, but ATRs aren’t applying for the jobs. Why doesn’t the DOE show the true number of ATRs that have applied for vacancies but haven’t been called for interviews, et cetera. A lot of principals are probably holding out on filling their vacancies until the DOE stops the hiring freeze. The DOE likes to just blame the ATRs. Why don’t they place some of the blame where it belongs – on the DOE.

ASTRAKA–I absolutely agree with you that the question is biased, but that was the experience I had as principal: choosing between newbies who were very passionate and ATRs who sent a resume through open hire but rarely returned a phone call, wouldn’t come for a demo, and only questioned parking (we had it at our school). I grabbed up experienced teachers whenever I could get them but truthfully, it was rare for them to apply. I was in a tough neighborhood, etc. I would have loved more and that’s why I’d say it was never a question of money.

but vote no, I don’t see fire fighters and teachers as comparable, though they both do hard, noble work.

and no, I ABSOLUTELY wouldn’t trust the judgment of random other principals, though certainly some of the ones I know well. as many people on this blog point out, some are good and some are not. some are diligent and some are not. some have solid judgment and some do not. some are vindictive and some are not. I cared deeply about my kids–why would I hire blindly? Teachers and kids are humans, and schools are unique. It’s important to find a good fit.

and Jeff, I don’t disagree. I can’t speak for whether it’s possible for the leadership academy to prepare folks, but I do know people that went in there after already having been an AP in the system. I agree that younger people often lack the wisdom and experience of older folks but I suspect we’d both agree we could find examples of good young(er) principals and bad old(er) principals, though they might be more the exception? I don’t know. but my original point was that people write as though sooooo many of the principals of nyc schools are young graduates from the leadership academy, and that’s just not my experience. lots of older principals out there, as well as principals (young and old) who took a more traditional route.

I do think it’s in everyone’s best interest to find a solution to the ATR problem (certainly, as a tax payer, I think it needs to be solved). I’m not sure what the answer is. I know what things were like before the current system and that was pretty crappy, too.

Citizen,

you said,

“and no, I ABSOLUTELY wouldn’t trust the judgment of random other principals, though certainly some of the ones I know well. as many people on this blog point out, some are good and some are not. some are diligent and some are not. some have solid judgment and some do not. some are vindictive and some are not. I cared deeply about my kids–why would I hire blindly? Teachers and kids are humans, and schools are unique. It’s important to find a good fit.”

Thank you! Enough said. If you wouldn’t trust your fellow principals’ judgment over their evaluations, then it should be obvious that ATRs should not have their livelihoods determined by how they did during “interviews” or conducting “demo lessons” in front of such principals.

I retired from the NYC school system after 33 credited years in 2001.

It is not the fault of the excessed teachers that their student population dropped or that they are active in the union or differ with their principal regarding pedagogical methodology. These principals, many from the infamous Leadership Academy, are using excessing as an excuse to get rid of experienced people and bring in those who they can easily intimidate.

Many of these excessed teachers came have Common Branches licenses and were teaching in schools with a grade 6. What’s the problem? How come we rarely hear of a supervisor being excessed or laid off? What’s going on at Tweed? The UFT continues to do little to nothing to ameliorate the situation. Why did the UFT give up bumping rights in the outrageous 2005 contract? The UFT has become nothing more than a collection agency. Why should they work hard for teachers when they are voted in by landslide votes? Every person-teacher, guidance counselor, secretary, psychologist, social worker, etc needs to be in their own separate bargaining unit.
How could the UFT leadership allow school to open 1 day for Sept. 8th before closing for the Rosh Hashanah observance? The state legislature mandates a 180 day year. In N.Y.C., you have much more than that. There was no problem. This is a perfect example of a union in full compliance with the horrible Bloomberg-Klein regime of no-nothing education. Why did the union do nothing for Bill Thompson? Where were they on that one? What were they afraid of? Could it be any worse?
Sorry to digress, but the UFT is definitely part of the problem here. EXCESSED TEACHERS MUST BE BROUGHT BACK TO FULL-TIME TEACHING. THEY DID NOT EARN MASTER’S DEGREES TO BE SUBJECTED TO SUBSTITUTE WORK. LET MULGREW, WEINGARTEN, KLEIN, and his spokespeople-Ann Forte, Margie Feinberg and other do-nothings do some atr work and see how they like it. They can even wake up Denis Walcott for this as he does nothing but sleep away the day.
With so many children, reading below level, how can the city excess reading teachers? The UFT demonstrates for every other cause. How about a HUGE DEMONSTRATION IN FRONT OF TWEED FOR EXCESSED TEACHERS AND OTHERS/

I am an excessed school secretary that has 17 years of seniority. I was just excessed from the high school that I worked at for the past 8 years because of a budget reduction. I was the only secretary. The UFT won a grievance on the behalf of school secretaries that only a secretary can do a secretary’s job. Well, a teacher or someone other than a secretary is going to be doing my job on 9/7/10. There won’t be a secretary at the school. Why is it that principals don’t have to follow the rules? They can do whatever they want. When a principal excesses someone because of a budget reduction, the DOE should verify that the excessing was necessary. Since 7/31 I have been looking for a job through the DOE system that excessed pesonnel is supposed to use. I’ve applied online, made phone calls, mailed resumes and I still haven’t received an email or call for an interview for most of the schools I’ve applied for. One vacancy I applied for I was told was pulled because the school really didn’t have enough money for the position. The one interview I did go on looked very promising and the reason I didn’t get it appears to be because of my salary. because . Since I didn’t find a position on my own on Friday I was placed in a school that doesn’t even have a vacancy listed on the Excessed Staff Selectionn System. I have to wait until I go to the school on 9/7/10 to find out whether they need a secretary or not. It could be the secretary that was in the school transferred and it’s a last minute vacancy. I did some research on the school and I found out it seems to have a new principal almost every year. Now the school has an interim acting principal that came from a school in the Bronx where teachers complained that he wanted them to change test scores, et cetera. They also said that he ridiculed the staff and teachers in front of parents and students. According to the news article this incident was under investigation. Why isn’t this principal in the rubber room? Why isn’t the DOE complaining about him? They just transfer him too another school. Principals don’t seem to have a problem finding a job. They’re never excessed. Few are fired and then the DOE creates a new title for them. THE UFT NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING FOR ALL ITS EXCESSED MEMBERS.

To the comment before me, make sure you keep voting for Unity Caucus, the cause of all this misery. They’ve been in power now for over 50 years and they have little to no interest for the classroom teacher. They made sure to get themselves double pensions. Very few people are aware of this. Double pensions, that’s right. The membership is paying for this. Look at Randi Benedict Weingarten. She becomes president of the AFT and agrees with Michelle Rhee, head of Washington schools, regarding firing of teachers. Who needed this witch to be the spokesperson for teachers? She represents her big fat salary and her cronies only. How long did she really teach at Clara Barton? She and all of Unity Caucus continue to sell out the teachers in N.Y.C. and now the rest of America as well. What’s she now on a-A TRIPLE PENSION?

We must have a committee of retired teachers and supervisors running our schools. Having directly served in the trenches, they know what teachers and children need to succeed in school.
Too bad Meryl Tisch can’t fire Joel Klein. I love the way these chancellors need waivers to have their jobs. Imagine Klein in a classroom. He wouldn’t last an hour. I understand he did per-diem work in the schools. He knew when to get out. Infact, most of our supervisors were expert at getting out of the classroom as soon as they could.