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	<title>Comments on: Charter School Spending Compared to DOE Spending</title>
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	<link>http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/19/charter-school-spending-compared-to-doe-spending/</link>
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		<title>By: Frank Rombach</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/19/charter-school-spending-compared-to-doe-spending/comment-page-1/#comment-337567</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Rombach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jan 2011 12:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=34975#comment-337567</guid>
		<description>some  truly  nice and  utilitarian info   on this  internet site ,  too  I think  the  design and style   has got   great  features.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>some  truly  nice and  utilitarian info   on this  internet site ,  too  I think  the  design and style   has got   great  features.</p>
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		<title>By: The Failure You Know &#171; Incessant Dissent</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/19/charter-school-spending-compared-to-doe-spending/comment-page-1/#comment-261219</link>
		<dc:creator>The Failure You Know &#171; Incessant Dissent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 19:18:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=34975#comment-261219</guid>
		<description>[...] truth-of-the-head is that American public schooling is failing.Expenses are too high, political influence is too systemic, and results areterrifyingly low. This isn’t news. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] truth-of-the-head is that American public schooling is failing.Expenses are too high, political influence is too systemic, and results areterrifyingly low. This isn’t news. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Failure You Know</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/19/charter-school-spending-compared-to-doe-spending/comment-page-1/#comment-261125</link>
		<dc:creator>The Failure You Know</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=34975#comment-261125</guid>
		<description>[...] truth-of-the-head is that American public schooling is failing. Expenses are too high, political influence is too systemic, and results are terrifyingly low. This isn&#8217;t news. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] truth-of-the-head is that American public schooling is failing. Expenses are too high, political influence is too systemic, and results are terrifyingly low. This isn&#8217;t news. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/19/charter-school-spending-compared-to-doe-spending/comment-page-1/#comment-259588</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=34975#comment-259588</guid>
		<description>Hey Jonathan,

Kim does work with me and, yes, I have given money to charter schools and organizations that support charter schools in the past.  I have also given money to Gotham Schools.  All of those facts have been disclosed several times in the past, but I think it is worthwhile to repeat them periodically.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Jonathan,</p>
<p>Kim does work with me and, yes, I have given money to charter schools and organizations that support charter schools in the past.  I have also given money to Gotham Schools.  All of those facts have been disclosed several times in the past, but I think it is worthwhile to repeat them periodically.  </p>
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		<title>By: Michael M.</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/19/charter-school-spending-compared-to-doe-spending/comment-page-1/#comment-259568</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 23:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=34975#comment-259568</guid>
		<description>Kim,
Thanks.
I was fishing for more salary/budget hits like &quot;school psychologist&quot; that are more likely to be found (I believe) in a TPS than charter.
I knew you already had things like rent and busing covered.
Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kim,<br />
Thanks.<br />
I was fishing for more salary/budget hits like &#8220;school psychologist&#8221; that are more likely to be found (I believe) in a TPS than charter.<br />
I knew you already had things like rent and busing covered.<br />
Cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/19/charter-school-spending-compared-to-doe-spending/comment-page-1/#comment-259563</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=34975#comment-259563</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry. Don&#039;t you work for directly for Hirsh?

And I don&#039;t understand your response about Moskowitz. Is her &quot;compensation&quot; included in the charts at the top of this post? Red? Blue? or not included?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry. Don&#8217;t you work for directly for Hirsh?</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t understand your response about Moskowitz. Is her &#8220;compensation&#8221; included in the charts at the top of this post? Red? Blue? or not included?</p>
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		<title>By: Kim Gittleson</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/19/charter-school-spending-compared-to-doe-spending/comment-page-1/#comment-259560</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim Gittleson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=34975#comment-259560</guid>
		<description>Hi Michael, Jonathan -
If you look at the spreadsheets, you&#039;ll notice that I actually compared numbers on a per pupil basis, not on an aggregate basis. This is to correct for differences that may result from class sizes, etc. I chose not to use &quot;raw numbers&quot; because I think raw number comparisons can be misleading. For instance, School A devotes $2 to teacher instruction whereas School B devoted $100. Knowing that School A&#039;s total budget is $4 for 20 pupils whereas School B&#039;s budget is $400 for 2 pupils changes the picture significantly. If you&#039;re curious to see the total expenditures versus the per pupil amounts those are in the spreadsheet as well.

Jonathan - I&#039;m not quite sure why you believe that I take &quot;charter money&quot; but I assure you that&#039;s not the case. In terms of your compensation question, if a school leader works only for one school, it would show up in their audit. In the case of someone like Eva or Deborah Kenny--people who run more than one school--their salaries are generally paid for by a CMO. This means these salaries aren&#039;t line items on an audit, but it doesn&#039;t necessarily mean they&#039;re not accounted for. Rather, the school (in this case, HSA or HVA) pays a certain management fee to the CMO, which presumably could be used in part to pay management salaries. This fee I counted under management expenses - which again, you can see in the spreadsheet linked to in this article. 

Michael - Again, if you look at the spreadsheet, you&#039;ll see I used two methods to account for the in-kind/&quot;off balance&quot; services that charters receive from the DOE. The first includes the IBO&#039;s estimate for in-kind services that charters receive. I used their number - around $3900K per pupil - and added it on to the average charter expenditure and then looked at the percentage devoted to teaching. Since there were critics of the IBO&#039;s report, I also did a comparison where I subtracted out the amount that the DOE spends on these services - things like transportation, food, etc - to have a more apples to apples comparison. Let me know if you have questions.
RE: your other points. I don&#039;t think my results prove anything regarding the compensation of individual teachers at charters or at traditional DOE schools. I&#039;m looking at comparing the number of teachers at schools in another post, though, which might help to answer some of your questions. In terms of the relative &quot;loads&quot; on charter principals v. TPS principals, I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any sort of generalization that can be made or quantified, at least in this specific case. You can look at my other study that shows that principals at charters are compensated at roughly the same pay rate as TPS principals. But again, this is not a great comparison, as many charters have &quot;school leaders&quot; and many TPS schools have assistant principals, which are generally (but not always) lacking at charters. Sorry I can&#039;t be of more help just yet - hope this helps!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Michael, Jonathan -<br />
If you look at the spreadsheets, you&#8217;ll notice that I actually compared numbers on a per pupil basis, not on an aggregate basis. This is to correct for differences that may result from class sizes, etc. I chose not to use &#8220;raw numbers&#8221; because I think raw number comparisons can be misleading. For instance, School A devotes $2 to teacher instruction whereas School B devoted $100. Knowing that School A&#8217;s total budget is $4 for 20 pupils whereas School B&#8217;s budget is $400 for 2 pupils changes the picture significantly. If you&#8217;re curious to see the total expenditures versus the per pupil amounts those are in the spreadsheet as well.</p>
<p>Jonathan &#8211; I&#8217;m not quite sure why you believe that I take &#8220;charter money&#8221; but I assure you that&#8217;s not the case. In terms of your compensation question, if a school leader works only for one school, it would show up in their audit. In the case of someone like Eva or Deborah Kenny&#8211;people who run more than one school&#8211;their salaries are generally paid for by a CMO. This means these salaries aren&#8217;t line items on an audit, but it doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean they&#8217;re not accounted for. Rather, the school (in this case, HSA or HVA) pays a certain management fee to the CMO, which presumably could be used in part to pay management salaries. This fee I counted under management expenses &#8211; which again, you can see in the spreadsheet linked to in this article. </p>
<p>Michael &#8211; Again, if you look at the spreadsheet, you&#8217;ll see I used two methods to account for the in-kind/&#8221;off balance&#8221; services that charters receive from the DOE. The first includes the IBO&#8217;s estimate for in-kind services that charters receive. I used their number &#8211; around $3900K per pupil &#8211; and added it on to the average charter expenditure and then looked at the percentage devoted to teaching. Since there were critics of the IBO&#8217;s report, I also did a comparison where I subtracted out the amount that the DOE spends on these services &#8211; things like transportation, food, etc &#8211; to have a more apples to apples comparison. Let me know if you have questions.<br />
RE: your other points. I don&#8217;t think my results prove anything regarding the compensation of individual teachers at charters or at traditional DOE schools. I&#8217;m looking at comparing the number of teachers at schools in another post, though, which might help to answer some of your questions. In terms of the relative &#8220;loads&#8221; on charter principals v. TPS principals, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any sort of generalization that can be made or quantified, at least in this specific case. You can look at my other study that shows that principals at charters are compensated at roughly the same pay rate as TPS principals. But again, this is not a great comparison, as many charters have &#8220;school leaders&#8221; and many TPS schools have assistant principals, which are generally (but not always) lacking at charters. Sorry I can&#8217;t be of more help just yet &#8211; hope this helps!</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/19/charter-school-spending-compared-to-doe-spending/comment-page-1/#comment-259522</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=34975#comment-259522</guid>
		<description>I hesitate to ask (GS and Gittelson are both running on charter $),

but why percentages and not raw #s?

and where does Eva Moskowitz&#039;s compensation get counted?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hesitate to ask (GS and Gittelson are both running on charter $),</p>
<p>but why percentages and not raw #s?</p>
<p>and where does Eva Moskowitz&#8217;s compensation get counted?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael M.</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/19/charter-school-spending-compared-to-doe-spending/comment-page-1/#comment-259470</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 15:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=34975#comment-259470</guid>
		<description>Kim and Ken,

I keep reading that class sizes in charterville are smaller than in TPS country.  If true, how might this affect the implications of your results?

A lot of the public square discussion involves assumptions that TPS teachers include a good number of more senior (pricey) teachers, and that charters have more entry-salary teachers.  Your results suggest otherwise, no?

How do you account for the &quot;off balance sheet&quot; goods, services, and support, that charters are said to receive?

Pairs of pies totaling 100% each might look different if compared as absolutes -- as dollars.  Say normed to a per class, or per student, basis.

Last, while the debate revolves mostly around the &quot;in-class instruction&quot; component, how much load is on the TPS principals that may not be on the charter principals, or vice versa?

Thanks much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kim and Ken,</p>
<p>I keep reading that class sizes in charterville are smaller than in TPS country.  If true, how might this affect the implications of your results?</p>
<p>A lot of the public square discussion involves assumptions that TPS teachers include a good number of more senior (pricey) teachers, and that charters have more entry-salary teachers.  Your results suggest otherwise, no?</p>
<p>How do you account for the &#8220;off balance sheet&#8221; goods, services, and support, that charters are said to receive?</p>
<p>Pairs of pies totaling 100% each might look different if compared as absolutes &#8212; as dollars.  Say normed to a per class, or per student, basis.</p>
<p>Last, while the debate revolves mostly around the &#8220;in-class instruction&#8221; component, how much load is on the TPS principals that may not be on the charter principals, or vice versa?</p>
<p>Thanks much.</p>
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