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March 10, 2010

Finally Doing Something about Specialized High School Admissions

by John Garvey, at 9:30 am

The woefully small percentages of black and Hispanic students at the city’s specialized high schools is not a new development, but that doesn’t mean we can’t do something to change it. Here’s my suggestion: The Department of Education should adopt a proportional admissions plan for the exam schools that would offer admission to the highest-scoring students from each of the neighborhoods of the city.

An idea whose time has come

In 1995, then-Chancellor Ramon Cortines lamented the declining percentages of black and Hispanic students at the city’s specialized high schools. At the time, the numbers were actually better than they are now: Bronx Science’s enrollment was 10.7% black and 9.2% Hispanic; Stuyvesant’s was 4.8% black and 4.3% Hispanic.

In 1996, ACORN (well before its recent collapse) published a report, entitled “Secret Apartheid II: Race, Regents and Resources,” that analyzed enrollment numbers at Stuyvesant and Bronx Science, the two most selective schools. The ACORN analysis revealed that:

  • Private and parochial schools, plus just three districts in Manhattan and Queens with less than 10 percent of all public middle school students supplied over 50 percent of students admitted to Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in 1995.
  • Six districts in the Bronx and Manhattan together contributed less than 1 percent of the 1995 entering classes at the two schools.
  • And nine other community school districts contributed less than 1 percent each.

ACORN found that the districts that sent the fewest students to the elite schools were also the most heavily black and Hispanic. The districts sending the most students to the schools also had the fewest non-white children.

A long-overdue similar analysis conducted today would likely reveal a very similar reality. Clearly, segregation and the unequal educational opportunities that result continue to distort the enrollment profile of the city’s most selective high schools.

What can we learn from Texas?

Our situation is analogous to the situation in Texas when it came to admissions to the state’s elite universities after a federal appeals court ruled that Texas’s affirmative action program for university admissions was unconstitutional. In 1996, fewer than 20 high schools supplied a quarter of the 5519 freshmen at the University of Texas at Austin, and only 40 percent of all high schools in the state sent even a single student. To address this disparity, the state adopted a policy by which students in the top 10 percent at any Texas high school would be admitted to the state university of their choice.

The new policy worked. By 2006, half of the freshman class was composed of students from 104 high schools. And by 2007, more than 900 high schools were sending students to UT-Austin. In a very encouraging development, once high schools realized that their students were being admitted, more students began applying.

There are downsides to the Texas model: High-achieving black and Hispanic students who rank below the top 10 percent at  majority-white schools often do not get admitted to the college of their choice.

Students admitted under Texas’s top 10 percent plan do well. Professor Uri Treisman told me that students admitted under the 10 percent plan who enroll in the College of Natural Sciences frequently need some extra help at the beginning of college but that, afterwards, they do fine. And a study found that black and Hispanic students admitted under the plan performed as well or better than white students ranked significantly lower in their high school classes who also won admission to UT schools.

Implications for New York City

Fifty percent of students taking the specialized high school exam are black or Hispanic. I think it’s safe to assume that most of these test-takers are, by their own, their parents’ and/or their teachers’ estimates considered to be good students and furthermore that they are seriously interested in attending one of the exam schools.

It has become clear that the special institute the DOE conducts to improve the success rates of black and Hispanic students on the exam is not effective at addressing the disproportionate admissions issue. But, on the basis of the results in Texas, we can have some confidence that students admitted under my proposal would be successful in the specialized high schools. They might need some extra help when they first enroll. It would be better by far for the DOE to invest the funds it spends on the institute (without much positive result) in assisting kids who’ve been accepted to the exam schools to succeed.

Judging students by grades or class rank would offer the fairest estimation of their potential, but the 1971 Hecht-Calandra Act mandates that admission to specialized high schools be determined by exam. In addition, the specialized high school test has such a mythical stature in the city that there would surely be an outcry if it were eliminated. In any case, I’m pretty confident that most of the kids from different neighborhoods who do best on the exam will be the kids who have the best grades in the schools they attend. This should be a relatively easy thing for the DOE to test before making any decisions.

The change I’m recommending might require legislative approval, or it could be that the chancellor has the authority to interpret the law in a manner that would allow for the new admissions method I propose. In either case, moving toward proportional admissions from each district is an idea that’s worth careful consideration.

A New York Precedent (Actually a Brooklyn One)

Let me close with a bit of personal history. I completed eighth grade at a Catholic grammar school in Brooklyn in 1961. At that time, just as now, students who wanted to attend a Catholic high school had to take a special exam called the COOP. As I recall, it was not so unlike the test that I took at Brooklyn Tech that same year. Since my mother deeply desired that I attend a Catholic high school, the Tech test was a bit of an insurance policy. In addition, at that time, because the number of diocesan high schools in the Brooklyn diocese (which were much less expensive than the private Catholic schools) was limited, seats were apportioned on the basis of parishes. Each parish got to send its four highest-scoring students.

And that’s what happened to me — I was admitted with three other boys I knew from Saint Michael’s in Sunset Park to Saint Augustine’s in Park Slope. Although it was a long time ago, I don’t recall that very many of my classmates had a hard time with the fairly demanding courses at Saint Augustine’s.

I think we can borrow from that example, and from Texas, to better address what appears to be an issue without a solution.

John Garvey is the former associate dean for collaborative programs at the City University of New York.

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  • leonie haimson

    This is an interesting proposal, but I’m pretty sure that it would require legislative approval, and I’m pretty sure that the outcry would be huge and prevent this from occurring. Moreover, I am certain that the Chancellor would oppose any such change.

    FYI, though the state law mentioned above required the scores on these exams to be the sole criteria admission to Stuyvesant, Brooklyn Tech, and Bronx Science, Joel Klein has since extended the results of the exam to decide admissions at many more schools under his administration. Also, previously, G and T programs were administered by the districts, and worked more along the lines you are suggesting above, to ensure access to more black and Hispanic children, until Klein mandated that entry to all such programs be based upon a uniform cut-off line on high stakes exams, in the name of “equity.”

  • Anon

    “… I’m pretty confident that most of the kids from different neighborhoods who do best on the exam will be the kids who have the best grades in the schools they attend. This should be a relatively easy thing for the DOE to test before making any decisions……”
    John Garvey is under the impression that schools (kids) in different neighborhood are equal in academic performance.
    A review of the 7th Grade NYS MATH/ELA in those under-represented Districts(Neighborhood) will reveal a different picture – NOT many kids are scoring high enough at a level ’4′ in either or both exams. This can/will translate to similar results on the Specialized HS exam (not making the cut-off). The changes that John Garvey’s suggesting will either have these kids dropping out OR diluting the current programs at these Specialized HS.

  • EFM

    Some kids work very hard for the chance to one day attend on of these specialized high schools. Between school, homework and after-school, some of the children I know, regularly work longer hours than many adults would tolerate.

    Are you saying that these kids, many of which attend SHSI, because of their limited family income, should, because of the district their junior high school is located in, be punished with a quota, keeping many from achieving the goal they have worked so diligently towards?

  • Daniel Harkavy

    As a teacher at Brooklyn Technical HS, I don’t care what race a student is, or where the student comes from. All I care is that they have good basic skills and are willing to work hard in my class.

    If that is what we get, I don’t care what the plan is. But I will note that, at least for Tech, Stuyvesant and Bronx Science, by Law, admission is based on score on the test. You need the legislature to change that if you want your plan to be in effect. I don’t know about the other schools added to the list.

  • Yellow Peril

    I would move from Queens to Long Island in a less time than it takes to fry an eggroll if this policy were adopted. This is a just a big fuck you to poor people living in Flushing because we dare to make our children study. We all know that math tests are racist, because…. well black kids don’t do well on them. My illiterate father was killed in during the cultural revolution I came to this country with nothing, my kids will be doctors. The blacks in this city don’t even know what oppression means, they deserve the same chances as everyone else, not more. People like you will turn this city in to Newark, after the middle class leaves, the schools are already terrible. Stuyvesant is really the only reason to stay if your not filthy rich and can afford Dalton. SO sorry your kid stupid, lets pass laws to discriminate against the yellow peril.

  • http://www.ceousa.org Roger Clegg, Center for Equal Opportunity

    Whether this proposal is legal or not (and whether it can be justified as a matter of policy) hinges on the motive behind it: Is the reason for it just to give an advantage to some racial and ethnic groups, and to keep there from being “too many” admissions of other racial and ethnic groups? Oh, wait: No need to look any further than Mr. Garvey’s first sentence.

  • Redpoint

    I understand the good intentions of the author, but the idea is unfair to all the children taking the test who score well. A child who doesn’t score well should not be admitted to the school over a child who did, just because he/she happens to be black or hispanic; that’s reverse discrimination, and it’s obviously unjust. Many children at these schools are from lower-income families; they deserve to be there.

  • Smith

    Why are these specialized high schools even necessary (as currently designed)? You don’t need to have 100% high-testers in order to have a good school that offers a top-notch education. Simply shrink by a bit the number of the incoming students selected by the test and have a small percentage of the kids admitted by application with preference going to neighborhood kids.
    Then, take the high testers who would have gotten in under the old system and create a new school for them in another building where it would help stabilize the school – maybe a struggling school in a middle classs neighborhood (such as John Jay). Perhaps a Midwood-type school, where zoned kids and selective-program kids are all part of the same school.

    Redpoint, some would argue that it is unfair to take a low-performing, high-scorer rather than a high performing student.

  • Peter

    What will the upcoming USDOE Office of Civil Rights “guidance” say about admissions criteria to magnet and/or specialized high schools? Does the “disparate impact” of the Specialized HS exam violate federal guidelines? Jeopardize Race to the Top? Is Joel going to race to Albany and demand that the legislature change the law? and bash Asian parents?

  • Enraged

    Smith> …Then, take the high testers who would have gotten in under the old system and create a new school for them in another building where it would help stabilize the school – maybe a struggling school in a middle classs neighborhood (such as John Jay). Perhaps a Midwood-type school, where zoned kids and selective-program kids are all part of the same school. …

    This is the DUMBEST suggestion that anybody can offer.

    The reason why many (all) of NYC’s highest performing kids are killing themselves on the SHSAT is to avoid going to a struggling school (like John Jay).

    If Smith has a high performing kid, is he willing to send his own kid to such a school ?

  • EFM

    To Smith,

    Kids are not pawns to be used to raise, or lower the standing of a school, or those that attend it. Would you sort and distribute handicapped students, or English language learners the same way as you propose to distribute these children?

    As for your suggestion that “Zoned kids” be placed arbitrarily in specialized schools, it would not only put these, untested, kids at a disadvantage when it came to keeping up with the coursework, it would compromise the purpose of having specialized schools.

    Specialized schools are for kids who are academically ahead of their age-peers. Just as kids with learning disabilities need special education teachers to help them better advance, these kids need schools that offer a wide range of advanced courses, so they can continue to progress.

  • Tim

    Here’s the key sentence. Read it carefully:

    “Clearly, segregation and the unequal educational opportunities that result continue to distort the enrollment profile of the city’s most selective high schools.”

    African American students (especially) and Latino students do not have the same opportunities that white and Asian students do. They are far more likely to grow up in poverty. They are far more likely to be exposed to violence, to crime, to pollutants, to inadequate nutrition, and to dangerous living conditions. They are far more likely to be raised by a single parent. They will live on average about  4 (females) and 6 (males) years less than the general US population. 

    I don’t think it’s possible to say with a clear conscience that generations’ worth of segregation and racism — economic, real estate, educational, etc. — have nothing to do with these conditions

    Let’s also not forget that the nation’s elite universities and graduate schools have made scoring accommodations for minorities and had it end up as an unqualified win-win. The notion that progress and cutting-edge academics would come to a grinding halt at the specialized high schools is laughable and specious.

    Yeah, Mr. Garvey’s proposal is “unfair” to whites and Asians. It’s also unfair that whites and Asians can sit for their SHSAT knowing there’s a very slim chance of being outscored by a black or Latino student. If you don’t acknowledge that there’s an opportunity gap, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. If you do acknowledge that there’s an opportunity gap, this would be just one little step toward breaking the cycle. 

  • Redpoint

    Tim, you write: “African American students (especially) and Latino students do not have the same opportunities that white and Asian students do. They are far more likely to grow up in poverty. They are far more likely to be exposed to violence, to crime, to pollutants, to inadequate nutrition, and to dangerous living conditions. They are far more likely to be raised by a single parent. They will live on average about 4 (females) and 6 (males) years less than the general US population.”
    And that is truly the problem.

    It is not solved by admitting these kids to specialized schools IF they don’t score as high as the other kids who are there. They would have trouble succeeding at the school, and the school would be dumbed-down as well.

    If a minority kid is hard working, and gets good grades, they have many opportunities to go to good high schools, specialized or non-specialized. They might even have an advantage in the non-specialized schools (and certainly for college admissions). Otherwise, the problem is about poverty and culture, and that is not going to be solved by changing the admission practice at the school.

  • Shy, but firm

    @Tim
    Hmmmm, I’m Chinese (Taiwanese American) but I grew up as poor as can be (apt in the burning Bronx, mom’s a factory worker, dad working as entry level engineer and taking 2nd job fixing TVs in South Bronx), but here’s the difference – my family put education above everything else on me and my sister to make the grade and get into the best education systems in NY and the US. And most of my Asian classmates, which aren’t that many btw, are from poor to middle class neighborhoods like Chinatown and Elmhurst and Flatbush. Very few ppl were actually rich or had more advantage than any of the average or “poor” children in NYC. I absolutely don’t believe we got a better chance than anyone else in this city. So my sis made it to Tech, and I to Bronx Science. I don’t blame the entrance exam or the poor neighborhoods for this. Blame it squarely on the parents. I credit my parents for where I am today. And if you believe the entrance exam should be revamped to let your kids get in, you should honestly look at yourself first and see if you did your part in preparing your children for this highly competitive environment and competitive world. In other words, get YOUR priorities straight first, then see if the system still has a problem.

  • Redpoint

    I think it naive to expect that most kids who don’t score well enough to get into the specialized school would thrive in them. Has the author toured the schools? I have. These kids are doing simultaneous AP classes in Physics, Calculus, and beyond, along with extracurricular activities such as Robotics. Just to include kids in the name of racial diversity will not be doing them any favors if they aren’t ready to do the work on the same level as the other kids. If they began preparing them in elementary school, that would be another thing. Indeed, it looks like that should be the thing to focus on first.

    I really wish the author would respond to these comments.

  • Tim

    Redpoint, I haven’t toured them like you have, but you seem to be insinuating that not a single child in the specialized high schools receives remedial or even significantly differentiated instruction — they just show up and zoom, they’re all off and running. Do you know for sure that this is the case? It seems pretty unlikely to me.

    A second question: the nation’s elite universities and graduate schools and all of its most successful companies routinely make accommodations in the name of diversity. Do you feel that these institutions are worse off for doing this and should resort to admitting the highest scorers on standardized tests?

  • Daniel Harkavy

    We do some remedial work and certainly differentiate instruction. But the remedial work that I generally do would be considered advanced work at the majority of the NYC High Schools.

    Someone who scored marginally lower than the normal admissions cutoff would likely not be at a significant disadvantage, but someone who scored significantly lower would definitely be at a significant disadvantage.

    As to the purpose of our schools, I suggest you read the charters for the schools. Although we no longer train professional engineers at Tech, we exist to offer exceptional opportunities to exceptional students. If we were to distribute our students to their neighborhood schools, they would not be able to take most of the advanced courses that we offer.

    I teach science, and prior to working at Tech, I worked at Brandeis HS. We offered AP Biology and AP Chemistry to the students, during my time there, but more than half the AP Biology class was not expected to score well on the exam, but were just placed in the class so that there were enough students to run the class. We did not run AP chemistry every year because there were not enough advanced students to run the class.

    At Tech, we run pretty much every science and math AP class that the college board offers (as well as a whole lot more in other areas) because the concentration of students allows us to have enough students to reasonably offer these classes.

    That is the purpose of the Specialized High Schools, to offer opportunities to those who show that they have the capabilities to handle them. While it is likely true that minority students who are in poor schools might have those capabilities if their earlier education was better, the concern should be with improving that education, not setting some quota to bring them into the specialized schools.

  • Redpoint

    Tim–I wasn’t insinuating anything. My point was pretty straight forward.

    As for your second part: Colleges obviously look at a lot of factors besides test scores, such as grades, extracurriculars, the quality of the high school, the way the student has taken advantage of opportunities available to him/her, as well as racial diversity–often using quotas. Of course I’m not suggesting high scores are the only criteria for college. Nor am I suggesting that they should be for high school. There are several (though not enough!) excellent selective non-specialized high schools in New York City that also look at these factors, so there are opportunities for kids to be judged and succeed without having top scores.

  • Shy, but firm

    @Tim,
    I’d appreciate it, as an alumni as well as a member of a family that has several relatives that also worked extremely hard to gain admission, that you actually take some time to find the profile of these gifted and talented students here before making any comments or proposals. Also, for ppl who have seen my friends list in facebook that includes many alumni, many of them are the very same “disadvantaged” minorities mentioned here. They didn’t have any problem with the process, nor had any problems integrating. But what probably set them apart from their cultural peers was their level of motivation to suceed. That doesn’t come from watering down the admission process or setting quota minimums. That can only come from fixing education on the fundamental levels in this city, where teacher and parent work together to raise the children’s levels. Starting from elementary school. Granted, fundamental education is a right, but just like verything else in life, each situation is different. If the child doesn’t seem to be ready to for the challenges that he/she will face, they need to go back and figure out how to better prepare themselves.
    Also let’s try another question – suppose this hairbrained scheme passes legislation. How would we set the quotas across each neighborhood??? I can almost guarantee that NYC politics and district representatives will intefere at this point and will destroy any shred of ‘goodwill’ this plan was trying to achieve.

  • Smith

    Enraged, lots of high performers go to Midwood. I suppose it’s unfortunate they that have to rub elbows with average kids, but I hear that many of them enjoy the school nonetheless.
    EFM, what’s arbitrary about accepting and reviewing applications?

    I feel like we’re rearguing Brown v. Board of Ed. here.

  • Engraged

    Smith: post-lots of high performers go to Midwood. I suppose it’s unfortunate they that have to rub elbows with average kids, but I hear that many of them enjoy the school nonetheless.

    My kid(s) did not spend two years (EACH) prepping for the SHSAT (and my $$$ – thousands) so that somebody like you can tell my kids (or me) they should attend a neighborhood school for the sake of ‘…help stabilize the school…’

    I have one kid in Tech, another going to Stuy. One turned down an offer to attend Midwood (screened), the 2nd turned down an offer to attend Murrow (Ed-Opt).

    One of 23,000 that recently missed the cut-off to Specialized High School now have a chance at those seats. Hopefully, it will be a HIGH PERFORMING kid that will “… help stabilize the school…”.

  • Shy, but firm

    @Enraged – I don’t know what you’re insinuating, but my WIFE went to Midwood, and she has a great career in finance, her MBA from LBS, and is not nearly as poor as she was when grew up. Also, let me remind you, going to the specialized high school does NOT guarantee a successful future. I have my fair share of drifter classmates as well. But I’ll tell you what we had in common – our parents stood by us on our education. And not through $$$$ of prep courses (I only studied for a summer to get into Bronx Science, and did NO studying to get into Stuy 2nd round) like you so flaunt, but through time and effort. My dad taught me multiplication while kids were still learning how to add and was also my science tutor. Her grandfather and parents were tutoring her math and English afterschool. So don’t get angry. My point is that the system works, but mainly as the ultimate objective screening tool, but like you so nicely pointed out (unintentionally I’m sure), some people try to game that system as well. It’s YOUR job to help the kids succeed, but it’s going to take alot more than money and some prestigious high school credential to get them there.

  • Shy, but firm

    @Smith – I don’t get your analogy at all here. No one has placed an administrative rule saying certain people of different backgrounds/color are barred from admission automatically w/o a fair chance. It’s fine to speculate as to why they are not reaching their potential, and find a solution to the dilemma. But the proposal here amounts to educational “propping” for these children who didn’t receive proper education in the PAST. Which is the key point here – what happened to them in the past? The statement I’m about to make is by no means scientific, but it’s just my gut instinct – alot of a child’s attitude is solidified by high school. Not their experience or wisdom, but just basic attitude. If their attitude for education is poor by high school, these kids need a completely different curriculum to get them back on track. That’s something the specialized high schools are NOT designed for. The specialized high schools are there to maximize the potential of students they deem gifted through their preferred screening process (the entrance exam). And they’re doing a great job at that. It’s pretty selfish to change that mission for the sake of achieving diversity. Not only do you start to corrupt a perfectly good educational system, but you diminish the value of diversity. This city is naturally diverse as is. Nothing in the process is promoting segregation outright – basically the process might not be fixing the problem, but it’s most certainly NOT causing the problem either. So it’s not broken in my mind, so don’t try to fix it. What is broken to me is the education process before high school. Fix that first.

  • Smith

    Forget the analogy. Here’s my point: All children deserve to go to a good high school, even if they don’t score well on standardized tests. Allowing a few schools to pull out huge numbers of high scorers reduces the number of good schools.

    If your wife didn’t suffer from being in the same building as zoned kids, why are you against my suggestion?

  • Daniel Harkavy

    All kids deserve to go to a good high school.

    Some need more than just a good high school.

    A very few are capable of the challenges of multiple AP courses and other college level work in High School.

    And if those few are dispersed around their local school districts, there is not a large enough concentration to allow them the challenge.

  • Engraged

    Shy, but firm-> The remark about Midwood was copied from SMITH earlier remark (look at his posting). AND: Midwood is a FINE school – it was my daughter #1 choice on her HS application. SMITH made the remark: “….lots of high performers go to Midwood. I suppose it’s unfortunate they that have to rub elbows with average kids, but I hear that many of them enjoy the school nonetheless. ….” So go give him a hard time.

    BTW> alot have changed since you, your sister AND I (I’m a CHINESE BTHS Grad w/ a MS) went to Specialized. 10-15 years ago, 19,000 took the SHSAT. Today, the number of kids taking the SHSAT exam have shot up to 28,000. Like your bragging about making it into Brx Sci/Stuy w/o studying (I also did NOT study for the SHSAT exam back then) is NOT the case today.

    The issue isn’t passing the exam – it’s getting a score high enough above everybody else in order to make the cut-off based on the number of seats available in the Specialized HS like Stuyvesant (ie: 28K kids vying for 968 seats).

    My daughter’s current class of 32 kids – over 20 received offers to Specialized. All of these kids went for test-prep (either paid for by the parents or the FREE test-prep Specialized High School Institute). The kids in the class that did not get any offers, did not attend test-prep for one reason or another.

  • EFM

    Smith,

    When you say that allowing a few schools to skim off the “best” students harms other schools, you forget that these “best” students have a right to a good education too. A good education expands on what children already know.
    How would it be for your kids if they could do fourth grade work and they were place in the second grade? My son was in a regular class for years in elementary school, where in a year he learned barely enough for me to count on one hand. That he didn’t act out is a testament to his patience and the fact that at home I kept him learning. He is now in gifted middle school, taking advanced classes, and the difference is stark. He is with kids that understand and share his interests, He is learning new things every day. He has grown immensely both academically and socially.
    Should he have been forced to continue to languish in a regular school? How would it have benefited anyone?

  • Peter

    In the rest of the country we do not have specialized, exam high schools (with a few exceptions), schools offer Advanced Placement and a wide range of rigorous course, some use distance learning and other technologies.

    Elite students at elite colleges come from every nook and cranny of the nation.

    I taught at a large neighborhood high school, we offered a wide range of courses and sent students to elite colleges.

    It would informative to have students join this conversation … Maura … can you reach out to the “consumers”?

  • Shy, but firm

    @Enraged – I’m not bragging about the fact that I made it to these schools more than trying to make the point that you’re obviously missing about this article, where the argument I personally feel is flawed – there are a certain class of children (read poor children) that do not have the opportunity to even get to this school because of they will never have the economic opportunity to prepare for the exam, thus the proposal to move towards neighborhood quotas.

    You do realize that’s the inside message of providing quota by neighborhood, don’t you??? You do realize that’s really the argument here, right?

    It’s not really about proving that one child is better than another, therefore thus one high school is better than another, and therefore one child is more entitled to attend this school than another. It’s really about making sure each child had a fair shot to prepare for this entrance exam and have a fair chance to prove they are worthy of attending the specialized high schools. My point was that I came from the same poor class of children and still managed to reach these schools and these programs. But your very point about spending $$$$ of dollars to prepare your children to obviously beat the system pretty proves the point that the author of this post is trying to make (right or wrong). My family, and my relatives (I’m talking about my little cousins who made it to Stuy and Science and Tech the past 2 years), can never afford to take the test prep programs, which means they had to find alternative means to prepare for their challenges.

  • Shy, but firm

    @Smith – My wife actually made it to Tech, but opted to go to Midwood, quite opposite from someone else’s daughter’s situation. So in a way, I guess she’s one of those that helped “stabilized the school”, whatever that means. But she’s also very opposed to moving to neighborhood quota, for the same reason I’ve stated above – the specialized high school program and it’s screening process is not broken, so why fix it? It’s really about the public education system, especially before high school, that needs to be repaired. The feeling I’m getting lately is that the teachers and parents just do not coordinate well enough anymore to ensure the child stays motivated to learn. Forve feeding education is not motivation to learn. It’s just added pressure and stress. All this proposal really does is dilute the rich talented school population, and gives a very FALSE sense of confidence that the child is on the right track to get the best education. It really doesn’t solve the problem of not motivating the kids to learn in the first place.

  • Engraged

    Shy, but firm-> “…there are a certain class of children (read poor children) that do not have the opportunity to even get to this school because of they will never have the economic opportunity to prepare for the exam, thus the proposal to move towards neighborhood quotas. …”

    Apparently, you never heard of the Specialized High School Institute (SHSI). It’s a NYC DOE program (runs for 15 months that spans two summers) that prepares middle school 6th Grader for the SHSAT in the 8th Grade. The criterias are: 1). 675+ on BOTH 5th Grade NYS ELA/MATH, 2). 90% Attendance in 6th Grade, 3). Title I (Free Lunch) – (read poor children) — The program is FREE (yes, FREE) so that poor class of kids will have the opportunity to attend these specialized HS.

    In 2006 and 2007, SHSI had no income requirement. However, application were NOT allowed for whites and Asian kids (do a google on ‘SHSI’ and ‘NY POST’ and you will see this is true). Parents like myself, who wanted to send our kids to Specialized HS had NO choice but to invest the time/money in our kids to make sure they can pass the exam on a even level with the kids in the FREE program.

    So, maybe you should do some homework before getting up on a soap-box (and yes, tell your little cousins about the FREE test-prep).

    Back to the inside message about neighborhood QUOTA with people like Tim, Smith and Gravey in this BLOG –

    Apparently, they never attended SHS, never took the exam and do not have kids attending these school. They are looking thru the SHS window and making comments not understanding the amount of work and committment needed to get into one of these schools and to succeed. You and I are alumnus – we know, we understand. Nuff said.

  • EFM

    @ enraged

    You information about SHSI is incorrect. I personally know of several children, Asian and white that are presently enrolled in SHSI. They did not apply to the program. No one applies. The school the children attend recommends them, based on their grades attendance and eligibility for a free lunch. This happens while they are in the sixth grade. A letter is then sent to their parents through the school, notifying them that they are eligible for the program. The parents or guardians decide whether to accept or refuse the offer. If they accept, the program begins that summer.

  • EFM

    @ Enraged
    Please note that what I said above applies to the PRESENT, SHSI process.

  • leonie haimson

    Enraged: you are incorrect that “no one applies” to the SSHS institute. Perhaps certain students are asked by their schools to apply, but the application is also posted online at the DOE website. The prerequisites are test scores, attendence, and free lunch status.

  • Enraged

    EFM & Leonie haimson-> Apparently, NEITHER of you can READ properly. I stated ’2006 and 2007′. IF either of you want to research the fact: Google: ‘shsi lawsuit dept of education’ and you will come across how Asian and whites WERE NOT allowed applications for SHSI. An internal memo detail this fact.

    ALSO: currently, Private school student have to ask for SHSI applications (or get it off the website – deadline is April 9, 2010). Check DOE website.

  • John Garvey

    Now that the commenting has slowed down a bit, I thought it might be a good time to respnd to the comments to my post on the specialized schools. I will not, however, try to repond to all of them–since, in many cases, individuals were responding to each other’s posts rather than to mine.

    Although I, like others, value the opportunity that Gotham Schools provides to its readers to express their views on a wide range of topics, I never imagined that the wisdom of my proposal would be decided by a poll of the respondents. Instead, I had hopes and still hope that it will receive some attention from the leadership of the Department of Education and considered on its merits. I was surprised that the respondents did not metnion the evidence from Texas that indicates that a very selective institution (like UT-Austin) can change its admissions policy to one based on proportional representation (based on geography) without any advserse effect on student performance. I would have had a harder time making my argument if that evidence was not available. And let me repeat–I was recommedning that high achieving students from across the whole city, rather than high achieving students from relatively narrow slices of the city, be able to take advantage of the opportunities that the specialized schools offer. I should confess one prejudice–I do not believe that one of the purposes of the public schools of this city is to offer a free alternative to Dalton for parents who want their children to become doctors. Instead, the purpose of the public schools is to provide all students with broad opportunities to prepare themselves for the opportunities, challenges and responsibilities of adult life. It’s clear that some students are prepared to do much more in high school than others and they should be provided appropriate opportunities. I’d just like more of those kids who can do more to get a chance to do more. Kids who have worked hard in schools that have not provided them with appropriate opportunties should not be penalized for what their schools didn’t do. I’d also note that I was not proposing any limit to the enrollment of kids from any of the racial/ethnic groups that we mistakenly rely upon to classify them. I’d also like to note that I said nothing about poverty–I am acutely aware of the fact that lots of poor kids excel in school. Truth be known, I am unequivocally in favor of eliminating the scourge of poverty for all families and kids but I would not invoke poverty as the key measure of ineqiality in this city. Race-based discrimination, and its results in schools, is not equaivalen to poverty. It works differently and can only be challenged differently. Two last points–1) I was surprised by how many of the respondents were experts on culture and 2) No one should respond to “Yellow Peril.”

  • John Garvey

    Sorry. I can’t believe how many typos are in my last post. I began to see them just after I submiited the comment. Errors in typing are not as serious as errors in politics but they should still be avoided.

  • anon

    Mr Garvey:
    …”I was recommedning that high achieving students from across the whole city, rather than high achieving students from relatively narrow slices of the city, be able to take advantage of the opportunities that the specialized schools offer”…

    How would this be achieve under your scheme ?

    Let’s take a school like Stuyvesant HS that has 968 seats: NYC currently has 32 Districts all within the 5 boroughs. Are you suggesting that each of the 32 District sends 31 kids to Stuyvesant ?

    Take a JHS like Mark Twain in Coney Island, Brooklyn (do a google to find their website – IS 239 ).

    Mark Twain JHS, on their website, claimed that 71 of their kids received an offer to Stuyvesant HS (and 108 Mark Twain kids received an offer for BTHS). Will a school like Mark Twain be restricted on the amount of kids they can sent to a Specialized HS ? Will other schools in District 21 (like Bay Academy) also be restricted ?

    How are you going to pick (or limit) the kids that ALLOWED to attend Stuyvesant HS from a school like Mark Twain OR District 21 ?

  • Rick James

    Mr. Garvey,

    I like that you are reading these posts; it shows that you care about your idea. Obviously, you can feel the outrage at your seemingly innocuous proposal. It is of note that the hottest indignation come from either parents attempting to send their children to these schools or from former students. As an alum of one of these schools and, having read everything that you’ve written, I can clearly state that you are out of your depth here.

    Now I can point to your faulty comparison between UTAustin and the specialized high schools, of how the nature and sheer size of a university makes for — what should be apparent — different dynamics of education than that of high schools. (At the top of my head, subpar students in a 100 person lecture do not have much effect. Also, they tend to opt out of the class rather quickly if they feel they cannot measure up, resulting in a natural equilibrium. Lastly, if I want to be an EE major, minority composition is irrelevant : after all, how many black EE majors are there?)

    Or I can fault you for disregarding the tremendous sacrifices that parents are currently making in order to send their children to the specialized high schools. Quite often, both parents work long hours to supplement their children’s educations with after-school programs, so that their children may “not be penalized for what their schools didn’t do.” Considering these parents are often immigrants, coupled with the fact that immigrants tend to dwell in the same neighborhoods, it may be no surprise that “narrow slices” of the city dominate the admissions. While I’m sure we all agree with your warm statement: “I’d just like more of those kids who can do more to get a chance to do more”, you may not have understood that your suggestion would make a mockery of these parents’ toils by redistributing seats resulting from a fair meritocracy to those of a geographical mediocrity.

    But I think I’ll focus on your apparent disconnect with the purpose of these schools. While anybody would agree with you that, in general, “the purpose of the public schools is to provide all students with broad opportunities to prepare themselves for the opportunities, challenges and responsibilities of adult life”, surely the mandate need not stop there. These specialized schools are a haven for the best and brightest, whose abilities would only be hemmed in by their zoned high schools. (Not the least of which reasons would be the caliber of their classmates at the local schools.) These schools are supposed to serve as launching pads for Westinghouse finalists, future PhDs, future statesmen, future cancer-curers and the like.

    And with all due respect to your position as former associate dean for collaborative programs at the CUNY, these specialized schools are to produce graduates who would not attend, let alone attend, CUNY.

  • Rick James

    Errata.

    ……who would not apply to, let alone attend, CUNY.

    Mea Culpa.

  • Chinaman

    @Garvey, I went to stuy, and took classes ( College now program) at Borough of manhattan community college which was on the block across the street across stuy. I come from an abusive poor one parent family, and my mother is always trying to make ends meet, and  I’m asian. If blacks, and latinos cant find their own motivation to succeed watering down the screening process will just throw them into schools they cant handle. Allowing admittance to anybody who in top 10% of their class is highly flawed, Schools vary, I can say that the top 30-40% of stuy,at least half of them can easily be the valedictorian of a local high school, obviously only a standardized test would work, if you haven’t realized some high schools cant even send 1 person to an ivy league, yet in a specialized high schools, they send at least a few dozen. So no, absolutely not no way in hell should, “you are top 10% now you get to go to any specialized of your choice”. I feel if black and latinos are not making the cut we should not be lowering the bar to help them get through, it would be an injustice to a person who made the cut but sacrificed the spot to somebody who did just in the name of race. Also to above post “opportunity gap” i know a girl and a guy both black who made it to harvard another to columbia, they were not poor or disadvantaged in any way shape or form, and mot people who use affirmative action are NOT POOR, they are actually very rich. 

    Also may i note getting a latino or black in the name sake of diversity is backwards, you should not have a mixture of race, but a diversity of peronailties, intersts, but certainly not race. 

  • Angela

    I am black and a product of NY city public schools, as well as a hs math teacher. It’s all about access. As much as other races would love to think that they are inherently better than Blacks at math, the fact is – it is about access to good education – and preparation for tests. It’s difficult to learn Calculus if your school doesn’t even offer that option – which is the case in many schools. The math classes are a joke, as well as the options available. Many of the junior high schools don’t specifically prepare students to take these tests. Because of funding, you will have students who don’t have the option to be in gifted and talent programs. They don’t have the option to be in math classes that will prepare them for these tests. They’re trapped in math classes with other kids that can barely count – and the teacher is busy helping all these students to pass the standardized tests – not to excel on the high school entrance exams. Intelligence, as well as ignorance are not characterized by any one race – as evidenced by the scope of the comments on this board. What this article is about is making it so that ALL students have access to a quality education, including the Blacks and Hispanics who may have not had access before. If these students are able to go to specialized hs, they will be able to compete and excel with other students – just as I did.

  • Jasmine

    All I can say is “wow”. I wonder if most of you all know how racist you are? I am a teacher with two masters degrees. As a black woman I am proud of the way I treat all of my students. It’s sad to see the disdain so many of their parents have about us as a group!

    BTW: just remember, most likely, the rights you enjoy in this country were fought for and gained by the black people you now hate!

  • Peter

    Hi Jasmine,

    I love all people! Getting into the NYC Specialized High Schools should be based solely on merit and not on “race, religon or color.” Changing the testing format to give preference to certain groups is disgraceful and enthically immoral. That is why people are pissed off at the idea of changing a fair and open entrance exam. Can you imgaine not letting Michael Jordan or Alex Rodriguez play because their race are overly represented in their sports? It sounds ridiculous doesn’t it.

  • anon

    Jasmine: “BTW: just remember, most likely, the rights you enjoy in this country were fought for and gained by the black people you now hate!”

    I’m old enough to remember seeing many white people marching along with Martin Luther King back in the 1960′s. In my college history classes, I learned of the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 where Chinese people were kept out of the USA for over 50 years. The Japanese were held in Internment Camps during WWII while German and Italian were not.

    Blacks are not the only people who fought for the rights now enjoyed by many in this country.

  • kirstin

    ummmm,who said anything about hating black people?

  • robert

    Your proposal sir is blatant racism and will only insure the continued mediocrity of our school system. All testing and opportunities should be color blind.

  • leo

    Agree that these tests should be color-blind and gender-blind. Put the energy into helping disadvantaged kids be better-prepared though after-school programs, tutors, proper curriculum. Don’t create a two-tier system where their degree is viewed as less valuable than the kids who “really” got in. We’ve been there. It’s toxic to the group you’re allegedly trying to help.

  • John Garvey

    I guess it’s interesting that my comment continues to elicit occasional comments.  What I find most interesting is how little the respondents have actually commented on what I proposed.  I have responded to most of them off line and have tried to point out that what they really are suggesting is that we do nothing to change the existing state of affairs–which means that we are willing to maintain the existing state of affairs.  Unfortunately, that seems to be the attitude of the leadership of the Department of Education as well.

  • robert

    Mr. Garvey,

    The answer lies in getting to these kids years before they take the high school test. They need investment at kindergarten and teachers not bound to a union that prevents them from working year round or late in the day. They need to lower the stress levels in their living environment at an early age. You cant patch it up when they are 13 or 14 by getting them into high stress schools. I am sure you know the research, these variables are the important factors for their success by the time they reach the high school testing.

    RT

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