It is quite tricky to judge how good a teacher is, especially when these good qualities are ever changing, depending of the political winds, as well as all the created interests that the DoE has decided to meet.

Be not surprised that what people once considered “good” will within a very short while, in the present DoE that is 7 year’s time. The time it takes for you to become unaffordable to their books.

According to the DoE anyone will/can be considered a “good” teacher until prior of their reaching tenure.

As you have already notice, there is a lot of infighting among the experienced teachers and the newer ones, this is something intentional created by those above, all for a very sinister purpose, to make what was once a noble career into a new type of educational enterprise where labor and experience are second to the accountants, the bottom line.

thanks for that I felt totally like I was talking to walls.

NO… it’s not in the best interest of children to keep that bad teacher. They are better off with the BETTER teacher, no matter how long they have been teaching. And this is all I am saying.. but everyone keeps taking it back to age and years of experience.. in that years of experience automatically makes you a better teacher, which is simply not true.

And to the fact that you are more dynamic now? That is also what I aim for… to become even more dynamic as I progress. But what about those that get worse as they get older? Should they continue to educate our children? Should they continue to be ineffective educators? You say yes, because in the end they deserve it for their years of teaching.

You are right that there are some weak veteran teachers–there are weak younger teachers, weak middle of their career teachers and so on…..nonetheless, the seniority system seems to be the most fair…and I say that as someone who has been laid off (in the 1970′s). 

The whole notion that we can’t lay off our “best teachers who may not have worked in the system the longest.”  Doesn’t that speak of the new, in vogue ageism? 

I realize that your job is on the line if there are massive layoffs and I realize how stressful that is.  There should be no layoffs as class sizes of 34 are untenable.  Lay off the bureaucrats at Tweed; get rid of the overpriced, useless ARIS.  Stop all this useless, easily manipulated data.

But, also, Chris..respect your elders.   And realize this (as I did and still do)…every year I am in the classroom I become a better and more insightful teacher.  What I knew and did at year five was great, but I am so much more dynamic now…. 

And yes, there are teachers who are mediocre.  But those are the minority, wouldn’t you agree?

I too work in a classroom where classroom management skills are required for learning to take place in the class. Yes, it requires CLASSROOM MANAGEMENT skills to control any classroom. Yes, years of experience does give you lessons on how to craft a good management system. And it sounds like you are doing a great job and you have formed good relationships with your students, which is a cornerstone to any classroom environment.

But again, you talk of age discrimination against those veteran teacher, but you too are discriminating against those who are younger. After reading the posts on this site it sounds like an echo of most veteran teachers – “The youngins just have no clue and can’t do anything right until they get some years under that belt.”

I guarantee you that when I walk into my classroom, my students would in 1 minute begin their work, and we wouldn’t need 5 minutes to get quiet. They would be quiet once they started working if that was what I asked of them. Why? Because that is the expectation in my room. That is the structure of my class. That is the way it works. That is the classroom environment I have developed over the course of the school year.

So, to that A/P and young teacher who were in your class… they need to take some management classes and read some educational research books, maybe even get some training from those who have great management styles… not get 20 years of experience. Because frankly, I have seen some pretty darn awful management styles of some teachers who have been around awhile. And I have seen some veteran teachers come running out of classes saying, “Thank God, you take over. I can’t handle them, nor do I want to. I’m too old for this crap.”

Once again you fail to read my entire comment… and you too simply look at my 5 years of teaching and think I have no clue how the system works.

I understand that principals would love to get rid of “veteran teachers” because they are expensive. He could hire 5 brand new teachers for the cost of one “veteran”. I do not agree with this path.

I would just like to point out that you say I think younger teachers should stay over older teachers which is the opposite of the point I was trying to make. I was simply saying that these decisions should be based on your abilities to perform the job functions, not based on who has taught longer.

Teachers are given great job security that hardly any other profession is given. In the rest of the job market, I would say it is almost impossible to find a career that has the job security as a teacher, being that tenure laws are so strong.

But, I consider it an injustice to children to protect teachers who are AWFUL at their job. No matter the number of years… be it 2 or 20. The bottom line is… be good at what you do or get out.

And I hope you know that it is VERY possible for a young teacher to be 100% better than a veteran teacher.

For anyone who thinks that Peter here knows his stuff, please see proof otherwise by reading all his factual inaccuracies at the string at “Among city’s contract demands: flexibility to lay off teachers”

Principal evaluations are highly subjective, value-added tools do not yet exist, classroom management is not defined, etc., the Teacher Date-type (TDI) reports leave more questions unanswered than answered.

The last experience with layoffs, in 1975, student achievement did not fall. One could argue that the laying off the least experienced had a positive impact on student achievement.

The Teaching Fellows, a New Teacher Project initiative has had higher attition rates than traditional hires.

Peer hiring and peer review, including teachers in the hiring and tenure granting process might be a good first step in building a more nuanced system. Under the current Ouchi-based model, the principal as CEO, teachers are widgets, unfortunate.

Every person will eventually reach their time in life that includes new teachers irrespective of their age. A teacher with five years of teaching experience will definitely have more insight than a first year teacher. Eventually, your years in the system will grow, if down the road the chancellor does not take the extreme step of eliminating of those teachers with 10 years in the system. Then, I guess you would be a little leery when its your turn to be targeted irrespective if you are competent or not.

Over twenty years ago I came into the system with the same conviction as you with the ideology that I have better ideas, approaches, methods, and techniques to help students than the older teachers who I felt should move on with their life. Within a few years, I realized why older teachers are called veterans and the importance of giving them the due respect they deserve.

I’ve seen it all. There are new teachers out there that should reconsider the teaching profession and go back to their prior profession and, yes, there are veteran teachers whose time have come to step aside. But, we should not have such a narrow vision of hastily making the decision of “you should not keep a job just because you’ve been around longer.”

Using your logical would you have a 3rd year resident doctor perform heart surgery over a veteran doctor? Would you have inexperience lawyer handle a serious law case over a seasoned lawyer? Would you like a recently licensed pilot take over a cross-atlantic flight over Sully, an experienced pilot who’s our nation’s hero?

You assume that teachers with 5 years of teaching should stay over those with more experience and if they’re not doing their job or they’re incompetent get rid of them. I truly agree with you about the incompetent part. If you cannot cut in this profession, then you should be cut whether you have 1 year or 10 years or more.

But, it is not our job to determine who stays or goes. You have administrators than must do their job and if a teacher is incompetent then they must follow the process that’s outlined in the teachers’ contract and the state ed. law, 3020a. The law was created so that no person would be dismissed “arbitarily and capriously”. Teachers have earned the rights of due process and no one, not even a teacher with very few years in the system, should question or challenge a law that has protected many teachers from termination from selection by vindicative principals.

Reflect for a minute that you have tenure, due process, and how the union has fought very hard to ensure that your due process is protected. When you have 20 years in the system, you will encounter the same situation and will definitely remember the importance of job protection.

“The hardest thing in life is to learn which bridge to cross and which to burn” – Laurence J. Peter

Don’t burn your bridge while you are still crossing it.

If people cannot see what is being said here, the financial incentives of ridding the system of the highest paid teachers, the incompetence of many of the new Principals to be able to properly evaluate the effectiveness of a teacher, well those are truths that should be easy to see. I defy anybody to show that I am wrong. But what else can we expect from a system that puts an incompetent, arrogant lawyer lacking any experience in education in clear violation of state certification requirements in charge? The man is unfit for this position, and again I defey anybody to prove otherwise. Until we are rid of this misplaced lawyer, the school system will continue to deteriorate.

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
– Mark Twain