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	<title>Comments on: What I Saw at the Data Revolution</title>
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	<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/</link>
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		<title>By: The Data Revolution: Is Data the Key to Better Teachers and More Effective Schools or a Canard? &#171; Ed In The Apple</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-261276</link>
		<dc:creator>The Data Revolution: Is Data the Key to Better Teachers and More Effective Schools or a Canard? &#171; Ed In The Apple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 02:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-261276</guid>
		<description>[...] in New York State scale scores (see defense here and Aaron Pallas&#8217; cogent criticism here) are adjusted annually for both state ELA/Math, as well as regents exams, creating [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in New York State scale scores (see defense here and Aaron Pallas&#8217; cogent criticism here) are adjusted annually for both state ELA/Math, as well as regents exams, creating [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike K.</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-251530</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-251530</guid>
		<description>This is just a layman&#039;s stupid question but what is the value of simply identifying a kind of mathematical problem instead of solving it? To demonstrate any mathematical skill worth evaluating shouldn&#039;t the student be requried to solve the problem and (since it is a multiple guess test format) select the best answer? It would seem that there are some subjects that are fact oriented and for which it is fair to evaluate memorizable facts (history, social studies, elementary literature and beginner level sciences), and other subjects including math and language (foreign and native) that are only meaninful as skills.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just a layman&#8217;s stupid question but what is the value of simply identifying a kind of mathematical problem instead of solving it? To demonstrate any mathematical skill worth evaluating shouldn&#8217;t the student be requried to solve the problem and (since it is a multiple guess test format) select the best answer? It would seem that there are some subjects that are fact oriented and for which it is fair to evaluate memorizable facts (history, social studies, elementary literature and beginner level sciences), and other subjects including math and language (foreign and native) that are only meaninful as skills.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael M.</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-250969</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-250969</guid>
		<description>For extra credit...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e_gbzuuG0c</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For extra credit&#8230;<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e_gbzuuG0c" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e_gbzuuG0c</a></p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Pallas</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-250499</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Pallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 14:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-250499</guid>
		<description>GGW,

I haven&#039;t studied the features of state tests systematically, so I don&#039;t think I know enough to suggest any exemplars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GGW,</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t studied the features of state tests systematically, so I don&#8217;t think I know enough to suggest any exemplars.</p>
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		<title>By: GGW</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-250418</link>
		<dc:creator>GGW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 00:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-250418</guid>
		<description>Aaron, is there a state test you think is good?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron, is there a state test you think is good?</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-250061</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-250061</guid>
		<description>Thanks Aaron.  This is really helpful.  I would love to learn more over time about how these tests are created.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Aaron.  This is really helpful.  I would love to learn more over time about how these tests are created.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Pallas</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-249995</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Pallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 04:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-249995</guid>
		<description>Stuart &amp; Ken,

Interestingly, this particular standard has not appeared on any other NY state assessment since 2006, which is when the technical reports began indicating which standard a particular item was to represent.  I think the item is problematic because it&#039;s simply a statement of the standard.  A student could memorize the words without ever knowing what a polynomial or algebraic expression was.  A better item, I imagine, might present an algebraic expression -- say, x^2 -5x + 4 -- and then ask which of the following terms best describes the expression, with polynomial being one of the item options.

The broader point has little to do with this particular item.  It&#039;s rarely difficult to cherrypick an exotic item from an assessment and poke fun at it, but the persistent patterning of problems is much more problematic.  In the New York State assessments, that&#039;s taken two forms:  first, the fact that some standards are much more likely to appear on the assessments than others, thereby narrowing the curricular coverage of the assessments, and second, that from year to year, the standards which do recur are represented by items that are &quot;clones&quot; of the items that have appeared in previous years, which makes them overly predictable.

The presence of technical advisory groups populated with psychometricians is rarely an adequate guard against problems such as these.  Having served on such groups for the federal government (although not for testing and assessment projects), I would characterize them as largely symbolic. The advisory groups are convened intermittently;  the groups rarely have independent resources to explore issues;  often the key decisions have already been made;  and the agency staff are free to disregard the advisory group&#039;s advice on cost grounds, on political grounds, or on no grounds at all.

In many ways, the lack of control in the organizational system managing the state assessment system reminds me of Diane Vaughan&#039;s wonderful book The Challenger Launch Decision:  Risky Technology, Culture, and Deviance at NASA.  The involvement of scientists and engineers in the decision-making process did not prevent the Challenger disaster.  In the same vein, the involvement of psychometricians in the item and test development process will not -- did not -- preclude the development of a badly flawed assessment system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart &amp; Ken,</p>
<p>Interestingly, this particular standard has not appeared on any other NY state assessment since 2006, which is when the technical reports began indicating which standard a particular item was to represent.  I think the item is problematic because it&#8217;s simply a statement of the standard.  A student could memorize the words without ever knowing what a polynomial or algebraic expression was.  A better item, I imagine, might present an algebraic expression &#8212; say, x^2 -5x + 4 &#8212; and then ask which of the following terms best describes the expression, with polynomial being one of the item options.</p>
<p>The broader point has little to do with this particular item.  It&#8217;s rarely difficult to cherrypick an exotic item from an assessment and poke fun at it, but the persistent patterning of problems is much more problematic.  In the New York State assessments, that&#8217;s taken two forms:  first, the fact that some standards are much more likely to appear on the assessments than others, thereby narrowing the curricular coverage of the assessments, and second, that from year to year, the standards which do recur are represented by items that are &#8220;clones&#8221; of the items that have appeared in previous years, which makes them overly predictable.</p>
<p>The presence of technical advisory groups populated with psychometricians is rarely an adequate guard against problems such as these.  Having served on such groups for the federal government (although not for testing and assessment projects), I would characterize them as largely symbolic. The advisory groups are convened intermittently;  the groups rarely have independent resources to explore issues;  often the key decisions have already been made;  and the agency staff are free to disregard the advisory group&#8217;s advice on cost grounds, on political grounds, or on no grounds at all.</p>
<p>In many ways, the lack of control in the organizational system managing the state assessment system reminds me of Diane Vaughan&#8217;s wonderful book The Challenger Launch Decision:  Risky Technology, Culture, and Deviance at NASA.  The involvement of scientists and engineers in the decision-making process did not prevent the Challenger disaster.  In the same vein, the involvement of psychometricians in the item and test development process will not &#8212; did not &#8212; preclude the development of a badly flawed assessment system.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-249947</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-249947</guid>
		<description>Hey Aaron,

I would love to hear a bit more about what is wrong with the question and how you suspect politics was involved in its creation.  

I don&#039;t know if it is a good question or a bad one, although I feel comfortable that just about anyone that is literate and has a rough idea of what a polynomial is should get that one correct.  Of course, that doesn&#039;t necessarily make it a good question. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Aaron,</p>
<p>I would love to hear a bit more about what is wrong with the question and how you suspect politics was involved in its creation.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if it is a good question or a bad one, although I feel comfortable that just about anyone that is literate and has a rough idea of what a polynomial is should get that one correct.  Of course, that doesn&#8217;t necessarily make it a good question. </p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Buck</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-249925</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Buck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-249925</guid>
		<description>Well, I know that in Arkansas (where I live), the Department of Education requires that a committee of &quot;nationally recognized testing experts and psychometricians selected by the Commissioner of Education . . . shall advise the Department in all technical aspects of the assessment system.&quot;  To be sure, New York has a reputation for being a bunch of rubes and hicks compared to Arkansas, but I find it hard to believe that New York doesn&#039;t involve psychometricians somehow.  :)  

Anyway, maybe that&#039;s a bad question -- it strikes me as way too easy, although 33% of kids still managed not to know the answer even when given a choice.  So are you trying to say that they should have been asked to prove the quadratic formula by completing the square, or something like that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I know that in Arkansas (where I live), the Department of Education requires that a committee of &#8220;nationally recognized testing experts and psychometricians selected by the Commissioner of Education . . . shall advise the Department in all technical aspects of the assessment system.&#8221;  To be sure, New York has a reputation for being a bunch of rubes and hicks compared to Arkansas, but I find it hard to believe that New York doesn&#8217;t involve psychometricians somehow.  <img src='http://gothamschools.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   </p>
<p>Anyway, maybe that&#8217;s a bad question &#8212; it strikes me as way too easy, although 33% of kids still managed not to know the answer even when given a choice.  So are you trying to say that they should have been asked to prove the quadratic formula by completing the square, or something like that?</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Pallas</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-249912</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Pallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-249912</guid>
		<description>Stuart,

If you can point me to these psychometricians, I&#039;ll be happy to ask them.  I&#039;m quite serious.  I invite you to read the technical report for the 2008 New York State Grades 3-8 assessments;  see if you can understand the process by which items appear on the assessments.  It&#039;s downloadable at http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/osa/pub/NYSTP_2008_MAT_OP_TechReport.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart,</p>
<p>If you can point me to these psychometricians, I&#8217;ll be happy to ask them.  I&#8217;m quite serious.  I invite you to read the technical report for the 2008 New York State Grades 3-8 assessments;  see if you can understand the process by which items appear on the assessments.  It&#8217;s downloadable at <a href="http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/osa/pub/NYSTP_2008_MAT_OP_TechReport.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/osa/pub/NYSTP_2008_MAT_OP_TechReport.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Buck</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-249904</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Buck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-249904</guid>
		<description>Maybe you&#039;re right that politicians are taking time out from their fundraising activities to write questions like this, but I&#039;d be willing to wager at least a nickel that there are psychometricians involved, and that they have some reason for thinking this question a useful proxy for mathematical knowledge.  What are those reasons, and why are they wrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe you&#8217;re right that politicians are taking time out from their fundraising activities to write questions like this, but I&#8217;d be willing to wager at least a nickel that there are psychometricians involved, and that they have some reason for thinking this question a useful proxy for mathematical knowledge.  What are those reasons, and why are they wrong?</p>
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		<title>By: Sherman Dorn</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/12/16/what-i-saw-at-the-data-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-249884</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherman Dorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=29402#comment-249884</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m gathering Marcus Winters has good reasons to argue with Paul Starr and the many others who have explained how numbers have politics, or why Stephen Turner is wrong about the political utility of a nonparliamentary generation of facts. Ah, well.  

As an historian, I&#039;ll just note that the administrative progressives of a century ago also claimed to be taking schools out of politics. Of course, we consider education to be a right of citizenship. How did that happen without politics, and how can we expect anything we attach to citizenship to be without politics?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m gathering Marcus Winters has good reasons to argue with Paul Starr and the many others who have explained how numbers have politics, or why Stephen Turner is wrong about the political utility of a nonparliamentary generation of facts. Ah, well.  </p>
<p>As an historian, I&#8217;ll just note that the administrative progressives of a century ago also claimed to be taking schools out of politics. Of course, we consider education to be a right of citizenship. How did that happen without politics, and how can we expect anything we attach to citizenship to be without politics?</p>
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