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	<title>Comments on: Comparing Small Apples to Large Apples</title>
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		<title>By: Leonie Haimson</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-248517</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonie Haimson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-248517</guid>
		<description>KS -- if all NYC principals could cap enrollment at any level they liked there were literally be hundreds of thousands of kids on the street, with no place to attend public school.  Is this the sort of future you want?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KS &#8212; if all NYC principals could cap enrollment at any level they liked there were literally be hundreds of thousands of kids on the street, with no place to attend public school.  Is this the sort of future you want?</p>
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		<title>By: KitchenSink</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-248513</link>
		<dc:creator>KitchenSink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-248513</guid>
		<description>Leonie,

It sounds from your analysis that all those principals would be better off running charter schools.

They could cap their enrollments, balance their own budgets to produce the class sizes they want, and generally remove the impediments that you describe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leonie,</p>
<p>It sounds from your analysis that all those principals would be better off running charter schools.</p>
<p>They could cap their enrollments, balance their own budgets to produce the class sizes they want, and generally remove the impediments that you describe.</p>
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		<title>By: Smith</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-242685</link>
		<dc:creator>Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-242685</guid>
		<description>Diane, there one purpose for high school grades: to get principals and teachers to produce numbers that will justify positive press about Klein&#039;s tenure.  &quot;Achievement&quot; levels are raised by pressuring schools to award more credits and diplomas.  Meanwhile, Klein&#039;s new small schools are made to look successful by comparing them to larger schools with more difficult populations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diane, there one purpose for high school grades: to get principals and teachers to produce numbers that will justify positive press about Klein&#8217;s tenure.  &#8220;Achievement&#8221; levels are raised by pressuring schools to award more credits and diplomas.  Meanwhile, Klein&#8217;s new small schools are made to look successful by comparing them to larger schools with more difficult populations.</p>
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		<title>By: Diane Ravitch</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-241938</link>
		<dc:creator>Diane Ravitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-241938</guid>
		<description>Aaron, good analysis. Remind me again, what is the point of the school grades? I can&#039;t remember.

Diane Ravitch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron, good analysis. Remind me again, what is the point of the school grades? I can&#8217;t remember.</p>
<p>Diane Ravitch</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;3&#8243; Is Not Enough: School Progress Reports That Delude Students, Parents, Teachers and Principals Are Morally Indefensible. &#171; Ed In The Apple</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-241867</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;3&#8243; Is Not Enough: School Progress Reports That Delude Students, Parents, Teachers and Principals Are Morally Indefensible. &#171; Ed In The Apple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-241867</guid>
		<description>[...] parents and the public. As Aaron Pallas calls to our attention on the Gotham Schools blog (&#8220;Comparing Small Apples to Large Apples&#8220;) the tool itself does not pass muster.   &#8230; the student progress measures that make [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] parents and the public. As Aaron Pallas calls to our attention on the Gotham Schools blog (&#8220;Comparing Small Apples to Large Apples&#8220;) the tool itself does not pass muster.   &#8230; the student progress measures that make [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Leonie Haimson</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-239219</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonie Haimson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-239219</guid>
		<description>Class size is highly determined by resources and space, whether the principal can cap enrollment at an acceptable level, as well as the relative numbers and composition of the student body. IE if you have alot of special ed students who require smaller classes by law, that limits how many classrooms you have in ways that are not taken account of in the space formula in the blue book.  Our principal survey found that 86% of principals said that they were unable to provide a quality education because of excessive class sizes, and they were limited most of all by lack of space and an inability to control enrollment, and third, by lack of funding.   There is another problem with the peer indexes which relates to competition vs. collaboration.  Liebman always said that the system was designed to that principals could learn from each other in the schools that were similarly situated  -- ie from their peers, to see what they were doing differently that might give them better student outcomes.  In ARIS, a big part of its design was supposed to facilitate collaboration between teachers in helping to devise lesson plans etc (though its not clear if that is happening or not.)  But principals have understandably admitted that they are reluctant to help out other principals in their peer groups, since they are being judged in competition with them.  Wonder what you think of this problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Class size is highly determined by resources and space, whether the principal can cap enrollment at an acceptable level, as well as the relative numbers and composition of the student body. IE if you have alot of special ed students who require smaller classes by law, that limits how many classrooms you have in ways that are not taken account of in the space formula in the blue book.  Our principal survey found that 86% of principals said that they were unable to provide a quality education because of excessive class sizes, and they were limited most of all by lack of space and an inability to control enrollment, and third, by lack of funding.   There is another problem with the peer indexes which relates to competition vs. collaboration.  Liebman always said that the system was designed to that principals could learn from each other in the schools that were similarly situated  &#8212; ie from their peers, to see what they were doing differently that might give them better student outcomes.  In ARIS, a big part of its design was supposed to facilitate collaboration between teachers in helping to devise lesson plans etc (though its not clear if that is happening or not.)  But principals have understandably admitted that they are reluctant to help out other principals in their peer groups, since they are being judged in competition with them.  Wonder what you think of this problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Pallas</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-239206</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Pallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-239206</guid>
		<description>Alexander,

I understand the tradeoff that the DOE faces in constructing comparisons that are simultaneously meaningful and easily communicated to diverse audiences, some of which are sophisticated about research and statistical analysis, and others of which are not.  Value-added approaches are challenging to explain;  the DOE&#039;s peer index, for better or worse, is not.  But the evidence is clear that the peer index does not adequately adjust for real differences in a school&#039;s resources, and therefore results in a distorted picture of how schools are faring head-to-head.

I&#039;m not sure I understand your point about propensity scores, which generally work best when there are two clearly-defined treatment and control groups, and the researcher models the propensity for a case to be selected into the treatment condition.  Generally, the propensity model is indifferent to the particular outcomes to be examined, because those outcomes are observed only after selection into treatment or control condition has occurred.  You wouldn&#039;t have separate propensity models for different outcomes.

But it&#039;s true that the attributes on which we would want to match schools might be multidimensional.  That&#039;s why I&#039;m suggesting a latent-class approach, in which schools are classified into latent classes that are as homogeneous as possible on the set of attributes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alexander,</p>
<p>I understand the tradeoff that the DOE faces in constructing comparisons that are simultaneously meaningful and easily communicated to diverse audiences, some of which are sophisticated about research and statistical analysis, and others of which are not.  Value-added approaches are challenging to explain;  the DOE&#8217;s peer index, for better or worse, is not.  But the evidence is clear that the peer index does not adequately adjust for real differences in a school&#8217;s resources, and therefore results in a distorted picture of how schools are faring head-to-head.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I understand your point about propensity scores, which generally work best when there are two clearly-defined treatment and control groups, and the researcher models the propensity for a case to be selected into the treatment condition.  Generally, the propensity model is indifferent to the particular outcomes to be examined, because those outcomes are observed only after selection into treatment or control condition has occurred.  You wouldn&#8217;t have separate propensity models for different outcomes.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s true that the attributes on which we would want to match schools might be multidimensional.  That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m suggesting a latent-class approach, in which schools are classified into latent classes that are as homogeneous as possible on the set of attributes.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Pallas</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-239195</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Pallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-239195</guid>
		<description>Leonie,

Class size is a good example of some of the challenges involved in doing this kind of matching.  The idea of this kind of matching is to control for factors that are logically prior to a student&#039;s entry into a school, but *not* to control for factors that are under the school&#039;s control as a matter of school policy or practice.  The DOE might argue that average class size is a choice made by principals about how to allocate the resources under their control.  On the other hand, you might argue that class size reflects a school&#039;s enrollment, the amount of physical space available (i.e., capacity) and a school&#039;s budget, all of which are outside of the school&#039;s (and principal&#039;s) control, because they&#039;re imposed on a school by the DOE.  Adding class size as a factor wouldn&#039;t add any new information if it really is highly determined by enrollment, capacity and budget, but if there were differences across schools in their average class size even when enrollment, capacity and budget were equal, then we might think of that variation as something under the school&#039;s control, and hence not to be matched on in constructing peer groups.    

I strongly believe that, if we are to make inferences about the relative performance of schools, we should take account of the different resources available to different schools, and these certainly include enrollment, capacity and budget measures.

Incidentally, the use of class size in the teacher data reports is less ambiguous, because even if class size is under the control of the school and principal, teachers generally don&#039;t have the ability to choose the size of their classes.  That&#039;s one of the limits of the teacher value-added approach:  if teachers are assigned to classes of different sizes in a nonrandom way (i.e., a principal wants to reward or punish a teacher with a small or large class, or just thinks that a particular teacher might do better with a smaller or larger class), then simply controlling for class size may not adequately explain why a teacher winds up with one class versus another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leonie,</p>
<p>Class size is a good example of some of the challenges involved in doing this kind of matching.  The idea of this kind of matching is to control for factors that are logically prior to a student&#8217;s entry into a school, but *not* to control for factors that are under the school&#8217;s control as a matter of school policy or practice.  The DOE might argue that average class size is a choice made by principals about how to allocate the resources under their control.  On the other hand, you might argue that class size reflects a school&#8217;s enrollment, the amount of physical space available (i.e., capacity) and a school&#8217;s budget, all of which are outside of the school&#8217;s (and principal&#8217;s) control, because they&#8217;re imposed on a school by the DOE.  Adding class size as a factor wouldn&#8217;t add any new information if it really is highly determined by enrollment, capacity and budget, but if there were differences across schools in their average class size even when enrollment, capacity and budget were equal, then we might think of that variation as something under the school&#8217;s control, and hence not to be matched on in constructing peer groups.    </p>
<p>I strongly believe that, if we are to make inferences about the relative performance of schools, we should take account of the different resources available to different schools, and these certainly include enrollment, capacity and budget measures.</p>
<p>Incidentally, the use of class size in the teacher data reports is less ambiguous, because even if class size is under the control of the school and principal, teachers generally don&#8217;t have the ability to choose the size of their classes.  That&#8217;s one of the limits of the teacher value-added approach:  if teachers are assigned to classes of different sizes in a nonrandom way (i.e., a principal wants to reward or punish a teacher with a small or large class, or just thinks that a particular teacher might do better with a smaller or larger class), then simply controlling for class size may not adequately explain why a teacher winds up with one class versus another.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Hoffman</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-239171</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Hoffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-239171</guid>
		<description>Is any sort of unidimensional peer index really going to work for these purposes?

When different factors are put together like this, can&#039;t they end up offsetting and counteracting in unexpected ways? I know that propensensity scores compress many attributes into one dimension, but is that what we want to do here? I mean, do we we want to create propensity scores for doing well on one test or the other?

If we did that, wouldn&#039;t we need multiple peer groups for the different factors we want to look at? Like a peer group for attendence, a peer groups for teachers experience, a peer group for test scores, etc..

While methodologically more rigorous and more useful for those who want to be careful about meaningful comparisons, that might work. But that doesn&#039;t seem to be the goal of this DOE or such public reporting generally. 

So, what is the alternative? A single peer index, like this? How good can such an approach ever really be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is any sort of unidimensional peer index really going to work for these purposes?</p>
<p>When different factors are put together like this, can&#8217;t they end up offsetting and counteracting in unexpected ways? I know that propensensity scores compress many attributes into one dimension, but is that what we want to do here? I mean, do we we want to create propensity scores for doing well on one test or the other?</p>
<p>If we did that, wouldn&#8217;t we need multiple peer groups for the different factors we want to look at? Like a peer group for attendence, a peer groups for teachers experience, a peer group for test scores, etc..</p>
<p>While methodologically more rigorous and more useful for those who want to be careful about meaningful comparisons, that might work. But that doesn&#8217;t seem to be the goal of this DOE or such public reporting generally. </p>
<p>So, what is the alternative? A single peer index, like this? How good can such an approach ever really be?</p>
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		<title>By: Leonie Haimson</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-239103</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonie Haimson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-239103</guid>
		<description>How about the taking into account critical factors like class size and overcrowding?  The large HS have class sizes about 5 students on average larger than the small HS -- and tend to be far more overcrowded, which tends to lead to low attendance, more disciplinary problems and less opportunity for after school tutoring, etc.  Indeed, class size is said to be a factor in the teacher data reports -- by which the DOE is evaluating individual teacher effectiveness, and thus implicitly acknowledging that the larger the class, the less likely a teacher will be effective.  There&#039;s no reason that this factor should be excluded from the formula to determine school grades.  Is a school that has class sizes of 34 on average, and is at 150% of its capacity really on a level playing field with a school that has class sizes of 25 or less, and is only 75% full?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about the taking into account critical factors like class size and overcrowding?  The large HS have class sizes about 5 students on average larger than the small HS &#8212; and tend to be far more overcrowded, which tends to lead to low attendance, more disciplinary problems and less opportunity for after school tutoring, etc.  Indeed, class size is said to be a factor in the teacher data reports &#8212; by which the DOE is evaluating individual teacher effectiveness, and thus implicitly acknowledging that the larger the class, the less likely a teacher will be effective.  There&#8217;s no reason that this factor should be excluded from the formula to determine school grades.  Is a school that has class sizes of 34 on average, and is at 150% of its capacity really on a level playing field with a school that has class sizes of 25 or less, and is only 75% full?</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Pallas</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-239086</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Pallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-239086</guid>
		<description>Gideon,

Correlated factors actually make things easier, because the correlations reduce the number of dimensions on which schools must be compared.  The approach would be quite a bit more complicated than the peer index that the DOE uses, but generally the idea is to use the observed factors to classify schools into a set of groups.  A technique known as latent class analysis would sort schools into groups in which the schools are as similar as possible within a given group, based on these observed measures, but with each group as different as possible from other groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gideon,</p>
<p>Correlated factors actually make things easier, because the correlations reduce the number of dimensions on which schools must be compared.  The approach would be quite a bit more complicated than the peer index that the DOE uses, but generally the idea is to use the observed factors to classify schools into a set of groups.  A technique known as latent class analysis would sort schools into groups in which the schools are as similar as possible within a given group, based on these observed measures, but with each group as different as possible from other groups.</p>
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		<title>By: Gideon</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/11/18/comparing-small-apples-to-large-apples/comment-page-1/#comment-239043</link>
		<dc:creator>Gideon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=27805#comment-239043</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t throwing all of the possible factors into the mix be a problem since many of them are correlated with each other?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t throwing all of the possible factors into the mix be a problem since many of them are correlated with each other?</p>
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