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	<title>Comments on: Walcott: Not all charter and district schools are made equal</title>
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		<title>By: Lisa Donlan</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/10/22/walcott-not-all-charter-and-district-schools-are-made-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-216610</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Donlan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=25940#comment-216610</guid>
		<description>Kitchen Sink
What is it you find so wrong with quotas?
 Do you prefer &#039;benchmarks&quot; as a measure of what is fair, right, equitable,  expected?

In CSD One we have used both – to try to achieve academic, ethnic/racial and socioeconomic diversity- the goal being to have each of our neighborhood schools look as much like the whole neighborhood as possible.

OSE has been dropping CTT and Self Contained special ed classes into neighborhood schools for several years, ever since they noticed that some schools had well over the district average of students w/ IEPs and some had few to none.

This inequity  is one of the issues the community has taken up regarding Girls Prep Academy- which serves NO ELL students ( district average= 12%) and only 8% students w/ IEP&#039;s ( district average = 23% for elementary schools and 29% for Middle Schools). The same trend show true for poverty level and other measures of at risk students.
Serving at risk students is one of the NYS charter law justifications for creating these “education alternatives.”

You call quotas “reactionary” -  do folks think  an all -girls schools is innovative or reactionary?

 How does the kind of sorting out and separating- by sex, ability, language status, socioeconomic class and race by some charters, and by GPC in particular, fit in with Ellen’s point regarding anti-discrimination laws?

And don’t tell me about the “lottery” system- because if you can’t get an application, you can not get in the lottery. I even tried getting a charter school application myself  several years ago when parents in my district said they could not apply to Manhattan Charter School which was “incubating’ on the LES but planned to move into a building in the  Grammercy Park area. (Surprise- the school is still there, “incubating?”  5 years later!). The principal used the supposed move to convince me I did not want to take my young child so far away for school.
 There are also documented cases of GPC turning away students with special needs, as OSE and CSE well know.
Tell us, Kitchen Sink and others, how you think this issue of basic inequity- which surely was NOT the intention of the charter movement or laws- should be addressed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kitchen Sink<br />
What is it you find so wrong with quotas?<br />
 Do you prefer &#8216;benchmarks&#8221; as a measure of what is fair, right, equitable,  expected?</p>
<p>In CSD One we have used both – to try to achieve academic, ethnic/racial and socioeconomic diversity- the goal being to have each of our neighborhood schools look as much like the whole neighborhood as possible.</p>
<p>OSE has been dropping CTT and Self Contained special ed classes into neighborhood schools for several years, ever since they noticed that some schools had well over the district average of students w/ IEPs and some had few to none.</p>
<p>This inequity  is one of the issues the community has taken up regarding Girls Prep Academy- which serves NO ELL students ( district average= 12%) and only 8% students w/ IEP&#8217;s ( district average = 23% for elementary schools and 29% for Middle Schools). The same trend show true for poverty level and other measures of at risk students.<br />
Serving at risk students is one of the NYS charter law justifications for creating these “education alternatives.”</p>
<p>You call quotas “reactionary” &#8211;  do folks think  an all -girls schools is innovative or reactionary?</p>
<p> How does the kind of sorting out and separating- by sex, ability, language status, socioeconomic class and race by some charters, and by GPC in particular, fit in with Ellen’s point regarding anti-discrimination laws?</p>
<p>And don’t tell me about the “lottery” system- because if you can’t get an application, you can not get in the lottery. I even tried getting a charter school application myself  several years ago when parents in my district said they could not apply to Manhattan Charter School which was “incubating’ on the LES but planned to move into a building in the  Grammercy Park area. (Surprise- the school is still there, “incubating?”  5 years later!). The principal used the supposed move to convince me I did not want to take my young child so far away for school.<br />
 There are also documented cases of GPC turning away students with special needs, as OSE and CSE well know.<br />
Tell us, Kitchen Sink and others, how you think this issue of basic inequity- which surely was NOT the intention of the charter movement or laws- should be addressed?</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen McHugh</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/10/22/walcott-not-all-charter-and-district-schools-are-made-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-215426</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen McHugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=25940#comment-215426</guid>
		<description>Children should attend schools in natural proportions, not forced quotas.  And so far as I know, there are no quotas.  Some schools will even become hubs to demonstrate good priactises for certain types of students with disabilties.  
  
                                                     Principals and staff have been accustomed to being told that they do not have the expertise to educate students with disabilties.  I know that no one teacher can be all things to all students but a little honest thinking could bring people back the conclusion that principals and staff go into this to educate all children.  Maybe that is pie in the sky thinking but we need to stop beating each other up and work with the students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Children should attend schools in natural proportions, not forced quotas.  And so far as I know, there are no quotas.  Some schools will even become hubs to demonstrate good priactises for certain types of students with disabilties.  </p>
<p>                                                     Principals and staff have been accustomed to being told that they do not have the expertise to educate students with disabilties.  I know that no one teacher can be all things to all students but a little honest thinking could bring people back the conclusion that principals and staff go into this to educate all children.  Maybe that is pie in the sky thinking but we need to stop beating each other up and work with the students.</p>
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		<title>By: KitchenSink</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/10/22/walcott-not-all-charter-and-district-schools-are-made-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-215189</link>
		<dc:creator>KitchenSink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=25940#comment-215189</guid>
		<description>Firstly, can we please stop talking about charter schools as if they are a great monolith?  There are almost as many different approaches among charter schools to recruitment, special education and teaching ELLs as there are charters.

As for this new bill, it fails to address the complexity of the issue given that diverse range of approaches. Would it restrict, let&#039;s say, Wildcat Academy Charter School from taking in the dropouts it serves? They enroll surely quite a bit higher than the special education level than the district.  Would Family Life Academy CS have to enroll fewer ELLs than it currently does so it could go down to the district level?

And who would be these magical special education and ELL families?  How would charters be expected to reach them?  You&#039;re talking about a law that&#039;s based on family choice, now you&#039;re compelling certain families to attend a school.

Also, I know the reaction of many charters to this law would be: &quot;Fine, we&#039;ll play along if you force us to and ALSO (like many district schools) over-refer children to the CSE and slap them with IEPs, just to meet your quota.&quot;

Finally, what if this law applied to district schools as well?  Would you expect and want to enforce an EVEN distribution of special education and ELL students across all district schools?  If not, why would you compel that situation for charters?  What about districts that have major imbalances of ELLs?  Are we going to start busing kids from Richmond Hill over to Douglaston so the latter could meet an immigrant quota?  

Sorry PS 87M - Johnny doesn&#039;t have a slot because we have to get that 4% ELL and 7% special education rate up! (We could just hand Johnny an IEP, I mean, he does fidget quite a bit for a four year old.)  

There are surely better ways to address this issue.  Setting quotas is reactionary and brainless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firstly, can we please stop talking about charter schools as if they are a great monolith?  There are almost as many different approaches among charter schools to recruitment, special education and teaching ELLs as there are charters.</p>
<p>As for this new bill, it fails to address the complexity of the issue given that diverse range of approaches. Would it restrict, let&#8217;s say, Wildcat Academy Charter School from taking in the dropouts it serves? They enroll surely quite a bit higher than the special education level than the district.  Would Family Life Academy CS have to enroll fewer ELLs than it currently does so it could go down to the district level?</p>
<p>And who would be these magical special education and ELL families?  How would charters be expected to reach them?  You&#8217;re talking about a law that&#8217;s based on family choice, now you&#8217;re compelling certain families to attend a school.</p>
<p>Also, I know the reaction of many charters to this law would be: &#8220;Fine, we&#8217;ll play along if you force us to and ALSO (like many district schools) over-refer children to the CSE and slap them with IEPs, just to meet your quota.&#8221;</p>
<p>Finally, what if this law applied to district schools as well?  Would you expect and want to enforce an EVEN distribution of special education and ELL students across all district schools?  If not, why would you compel that situation for charters?  What about districts that have major imbalances of ELLs?  Are we going to start busing kids from Richmond Hill over to Douglaston so the latter could meet an immigrant quota?  </p>
<p>Sorry PS 87M &#8211; Johnny doesn&#8217;t have a slot because we have to get that 4% ELL and 7% special education rate up! (We could just hand Johnny an IEP, I mean, he does fidget quite a bit for a four year old.)  </p>
<p>There are surely better ways to address this issue.  Setting quotas is reactionary and brainless.</p>
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		<title>By: canwetalk</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/10/22/walcott-not-all-charter-and-district-schools-are-made-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-214512</link>
		<dc:creator>canwetalk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 22:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=25940#comment-214512</guid>
		<description>Charter schools ignore the law; the chancellor ignores the law; the mayor ignores the law.  Teachers follow the law but are igored by those who don&#039;t care about the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charter schools ignore the law; the chancellor ignores the law; the mayor ignores the law.  Teachers follow the law but are igored by those who don&#8217;t care about the law.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/10/22/walcott-not-all-charter-and-district-schools-are-made-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-214488</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=25940#comment-214488</guid>
		<description>Canwetalk


The current law requires charter schools to make &quot;good faith efforts&quot; to enroll comparable numbers of disabled and ELL youngsters as the district ... they have chosen to ignore the law and the chartering authority has chosen to allow them too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Canwetalk</p>
<p>The current law requires charter schools to make &#8220;good faith efforts&#8221; to enroll comparable numbers of disabled and ELL youngsters as the district &#8230; they have chosen to ignore the law and the chartering authority has chosen to allow them too.</p>
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		<title>By: canwetalk</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/10/22/walcott-not-all-charter-and-district-schools-are-made-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-214482</link>
		<dc:creator>canwetalk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=25940#comment-214482</guid>
		<description>If charter schools will need to accept students with special needs and ELLs so as to eliminate any form of inequities between them and the public schools, then the charter name is a misnomer and it should be called public schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If charter schools will need to accept students with special needs and ELLs so as to eliminate any form of inequities between them and the public schools, then the charter name is a misnomer and it should be called public schools.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/10/22/walcott-not-all-charter-and-district-schools-are-made-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-214476</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=25940#comment-214476</guid>
		<description>Leonie: How about getting John White to support the following bill that was introduced in the Spring by Assembly Maisel and co-sponsors:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A07981 Memo:
BILL NUMBER:A7981

TITLE  OF  BILL:    An  act  to  amend the education law, in relation to
requiring charter schools  to  enroll  children  with  disabilities  and
English  language  learners  in  comparable numbers to those enrolled in
public schools

PURPOSE OR GENERAL IDEA OF BILL: This bill  will  make  charter  schools
enroll disabled children and English language learners in numbers compa-
rable to the school district which they serve.

SUMMARY  OF  SPECIFIC PROVISIONS:Paragraph a of subdivision 2 of section
2854 of the education law, as amended by section 5 of part 0-2 of  chap-
ter  57  of  the laws of 2007, is amended to read that &quot;a charter school
must enroll the same or a greater percentage of students with  disabili-
ties  and  limited  English  proficient  students  when  compared to the
enrollment figures for such students in the school district in which the
charter school is located. Failure to comply for two  consecutive  years
shall be deemed grounds for revocation of the charter&quot;.

JUSTIFICATION:Charter  schools  are  often  given the &quot;average cost&quot; per
student from a school district. This &quot;average cost&quot;  includes  not  only
students  with  average  needs, but also those with special needs. These
students, such as disabled students or those requiring special  help  to
learn English as a second language cost more than ordinary students. For
this  reason,  it  is  often  a disincentive for charter schools to work
toward  providing  a  comfortable  environment  for  students  requiring
special help. Charter schools must be required to expend the same number
of  their  resources in order to help with students that require special
help.

PRIOR LEGISLATIVE HISTORY: None.

FISCAL IMPLICATIONS:  None.

EFFECTIVE DATE:This act shall take effect immediately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leonie: How about getting John White to support the following bill that was introduced in the Spring by Assembly Maisel and co-sponsors:</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>A07981 Memo:<br />
BILL NUMBER:A7981</p>
<p>TITLE  OF  BILL:    An  act  to  amend the education law, in relation to<br />
requiring charter schools  to  enroll  children  with  disabilities  and<br />
English  language  learners  in  comparable numbers to those enrolled in<br />
public schools</p>
<p>PURPOSE OR GENERAL IDEA OF BILL: This bill  will  make  charter  schools<br />
enroll disabled children and English language learners in numbers compa-<br />
rable to the school district which they serve.</p>
<p>SUMMARY  OF  SPECIFIC PROVISIONS:Paragraph a of subdivision 2 of section<br />
2854 of the education law, as amended by section 5 of part 0-2 of  chap-<br />
ter  57  of  the laws of 2007, is amended to read that &#8220;a charter school<br />
must enroll the same or a greater percentage of students with  disabili-<br />
ties  and  limited  English  proficient  students  when  compared to the<br />
enrollment figures for such students in the school district in which the<br />
charter school is located. Failure to comply for two  consecutive  years<br />
shall be deemed grounds for revocation of the charter&#8221;.</p>
<p>JUSTIFICATION:Charter  schools  are  often  given the &#8220;average cost&#8221; per<br />
student from a school district. This &#8220;average cost&#8221;  includes  not  only<br />
students  with  average  needs, but also those with special needs. These<br />
students, such as disabled students or those requiring special  help  to<br />
learn English as a second language cost more than ordinary students. For<br />
this  reason,  it  is  often  a disincentive for charter schools to work<br />
toward  providing  a  comfortable  environment  for  students  requiring<br />
special help. Charter schools must be required to expend the same number<br />
of  their  resources in order to help with students that require special<br />
help.</p>
<p>PRIOR LEGISLATIVE HISTORY: None.</p>
<p>FISCAL IMPLICATIONS:  None.</p>
<p>EFFECTIVE DATE:This act shall take effect immediately.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen McHugh</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/10/22/walcott-not-all-charter-and-district-schools-are-made-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-214474</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen McHugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=25940#comment-214474</guid>
		<description>There already are LAWS and REGULATIONS on the education of students with special needs.  Maybe this is the time for the DOE personnel to become familiar with the IDEA, with the ADA, with Regents regulations and with DOE regulations concerning the appropriate education of, and access to education for, children with special needs.  It&#039;s an eye opener, a page turner, a barn burner.























































If you use government money ...federal, state, or city....to fund any part of a program, you cannot discriminate based on race, religion, sexual orientation, age, gender or disability.
As students in charter schools receive busing, breakfast and lunches and NYSTL (book) money, the charters are using government money.  Ergo, outright discrimination is forbidden.  The more insidious type of discrimination by omission can be  addressed by DOE compliance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There already are LAWS and REGULATIONS on the education of students with special needs.  Maybe this is the time for the DOE personnel to become familiar with the IDEA, with the ADA, with Regents regulations and with DOE regulations concerning the appropriate education of, and access to education for, children with special needs.  It&#8217;s an eye opener, a page turner, a barn burner.</p>
<p>If you use government money &#8230;federal, state, or city&#8230;.to fund any part of a program, you cannot discriminate based on race, religion, sexual orientation, age, gender or disability.<br />
As students in charter schools receive busing, breakfast and lunches and NYSTL (book) money, the charters are using government money.  Ergo, outright discrimination is forbidden.  The more insidious type of discrimination by omission can be  addressed by DOE compliance.</p>
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		<title>By: fuzzy</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/10/22/walcott-not-all-charter-and-district-schools-are-made-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-214454</link>
		<dc:creator>fuzzy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=25940#comment-214454</guid>
		<description>Just noticed that after that weird fuzzy field trip article in the NY Times, there&#039;s a Harlem Success ad on the front page of the Times website.  Wonder if they got a deal on that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just noticed that after that weird fuzzy field trip article in the NY Times, there&#8217;s a Harlem Success ad on the front page of the Times website.  Wonder if they got a deal on that?</p>
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		<title>By: Leonie Haimson</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/10/22/walcott-not-all-charter-and-district-schools-are-made-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-214450</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonie Haimson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=25940#comment-214450</guid>
		<description>Last night John White of DOE said he would welcome legislation requiring charter schools to admit more special ed and ELL students.  This is a new line on the part of DOE to admit to disparities in funding and student population between charters and regular public schools – though as far as I can tell, after more than seven years, they have done absolutely nothing to address this problem.  In fact, they have encouraged it by giving privileges and hidden subsidies to the charter school operators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last night John White of DOE said he would welcome legislation requiring charter schools to admit more special ed and ELL students.  This is a new line on the part of DOE to admit to disparities in funding and student population between charters and regular public schools – though as far as I can tell, after more than seven years, they have done absolutely nothing to address this problem.  In fact, they have encouraged it by giving privileges and hidden subsidies to the charter school operators.</p>
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