ATRs in the Teachers Lounge

October 22, 2009

ATRs in the Teachers Lounge

by Ariel Sacks, at 10:11 am

Strange happenings … There are ATRs in the teacher’s lounge of my school. Let me explain.

As you probably know, starting this summer the Mayor put a freeze on hiring of any non-DOE teachers. So teachers who just moved to the city, as well as newbies out of any teacher prep program, including NYC Teaching Fellows and TFA, have all been left with no job prospects in the public schools. This is because of the ATRs, who are teachers who have been excessed — NOT fired — from their positions.

Excessing happens when funding for a position closes up or a school closes down. Now, it is pretty difficult to fire a tenured teacher. It requires lots of documentation from the principal, multiple chances for the teacher to redeem him or herself, and there is strong legal representation for all teachers provided by the union, so even in the clearest of cases, it can take a few years. Many principals take the easy way out and simply dry up the position, thereby excessing the unwanted teacher. Often this is nothing more than a bad match between teacher and principal/school, and such teachers secure positions at other schools quickly. In other cases, the excessed teacher doesn’t find a position at another school, but continues to receive his or her salary from the DOE as per the contract — if you’re not fired, then you still have a job, even if that job is actually no job at all.

My school had a number of vacancies at the end of last year. We were able to hire a bunch of experienced NYC teachers who were fleeing their schools for the greener pastures promised by my school (I hope we’re delivering!). But a few positions remained open. My principal interviewed 37 ATRs. That’s right, 37. She said they were the most depressing interviews she has ever done, and that she “could not, in good conscience, hire any of them.”

Why were the interviews so bad? Are these teachers really the dregs of the profession? Or is it that they’ve become all too comfortable being ATRs with no teaching position and do not want to go back to the classroom?

Two weeks into the school year, we still did not have a math teacher for my grade. A string of subs covered the math class, while we attempted to wait the hiring freeze out.

A few weeks later, the city decided to place all ATRs in vacancies throughout the city. We received three from a high school that was shut down. These three teachers, all middle aged, have 10-15 years of experience and get paid much more than I do However, they do not want to be at my school, and they know they are not wanted either. In the classroom, they behave like incompetent substitutes. No order, no real planning, no real teaching. Some have been rude to students on occasion. Students get rude right back to them (and you know how middle schoolers can be when they feel disrespected). It’s not good.

Finally, we found a solution. The hiring freeze has been lifted in the area of special education. One of our special education teachers is certified to teach any middle school subject. She agreed to take over the math position, although she’s never been a head teacher before. We are now in the process of hiring a new special education teacher.

Meanwhile, we still have the three ATRs … in our classrooms covering whenever someone’s absent, and on our payroll as the most senior people in the building.

In the teacher’s lounge they are like refugees. It’s weird. I feel bad for them. They seem like they have come from a school that was, like many large urban public schools, more of a war zone than a learning environment. They seem almost traumatized, and ready to attack at any moment.

One of the ATRs is covering for a special education teacher who is on maternity leave. If no teacher is absent, I can count on her to be in my room while I have my CTT class. (When she’s not there, I’m on my own … another story for another post.) She’s actually a nice woman who is trying to do a decent job. She observed in my classroom, while students busily did their work, then came to the meeting area to respond to a poem. She visibly relaxed and her facial expression changed when she saw my students’ real capabilities. Now she greets me in the morning and tells me whether she’ll be in my class or not that day. She asks me about the curriculum, and is trying to work more with the students. It’s nice to see the shift, but honestly, I feel like I’m training her, while she gets paid twice my salary.

Another ATR as been assigned to teach an 8th grade advisory, since our (now) math teacher cannot, because she’s still in charge of all middle school IEP’s and needs time in her schedule for it, and I cannot because I am team leader and department chair and need time in my schedule for that. However, this ATR just hands out whatever materials we give him, and sits in the room and reads a book.

So who’s responsible for this situation? I do not fault the mayor. It’s a smart business move to stop paying for teachers who have no positions, especially in a recession. However, given the turnover rates in high poverty schools, you know which schools had to take the ATRs instead of the usual TFA’ers (who can be just as inept, but are usually far more committed and faster learners).

But who is responsible for these ATRs apparent low ability to teach? Look at the environment they must be coming from. Is it their fault they were teaching under horrible conditions and probably received no support? And, although, I believe principals need a real reason to fire a teacher, perhaps the union is at fault when the process for firing inept teachers takes years. Kids lose out during those years. And which principal gave these teachers tenure so many years ago? Were they different teachers back then?

I feel like I’m in the twilight zone. Should I just “suck it up” and teach this woman what I know? Like I said, she’s actually a nice person who seems eager to learn. Should I train this man to run an advisory? My kids deserve that…

Ariel Sacks teaches eighth-grade English and serves as a team leader at a middle school in Brooklyn. This post originally appeared on her blog, On the Shoulders of Giants.

http://MoreThoughtful.blogspot.com ceolaf

Ms. Sacks,

Can we also remember that teacher salaries are up like 43% on Bloomberg’s watch? Why do I bring this up? Because the teachers Ms. Sacks has decried made a great deal less than she has, at equivalent points in their careers. These teachers whose commitment she has compared to people who might never have taught, who get their graduated degrees paid for and a huge share of which leave the classroom after two or three years and who come in — even for their short stays in the classroom — in an era of FAR higher teacher salaries.

And let me ask you this: how often would the truth be harmful to your students’ motivation? Do you always tell them the plain and unvarnished truth as you see it? Do you think that the fact that something is the truth means that it is always a good idea to say it publicly — or even out loud?

You’ve given plenty of reasons for why the ATRs motivation might have been hampered, hurt or crushed. How hard can you expect them to work in such temporary assignments. (You’ve made clear that your principal doesn’t think that ATRs ought to be hired, and even your sometimes CCT partner is moved around without warning.) If they are not treated like professionals — or even like colleagues — what do you expect them to do?

I learned a long time ago that if we have expectations for students they will be met. If they are low, they will be met. If they are high, they will be met. You work with middle school students; isn’t that your experience? Why do you think that low expectation for adults will not be met?

It is really difficult for teachers to chance or improve. There’s an sector-wide culture of teachers working by themselves and closing their doors to do their own things unsupervised. Asking for help is hard. Exposing one’s practice is hard. Building collegial trust is key to teacher improvement — the only way that schools can get better. When you insult particular identifiable teachers so publicly, you not only damage any trust that might otherwise have developed with them, you also cause other teachers to doubt whether you can be trusted. Why shouldn’t they wonder about you publicly insulting them someday if you think them sub par?

If I taught in your school and was having a particular problem with how to teach or structure something, a problem with a particular student, I know that I would not feel comfortable coming to you. You might appear nice and supportive, but I am sure you appear nice and supportive to the ATRs in your school. I don’t want my practice to be publicly ridiculed. So, when you come to my room, I would be that much more likely to put together my observation lesson plan. I’ll turn to someone I trust when I need counsel.
Jeff S

A lot of people just don’t get it…put yourself in the place say of a 17 year veteran high school math teacher. For years, you have taught upper level math classes. Now for reasons of no fault of your own, an incompetent unqualified inept Chancellor decides to close your school and you are excessed. You find that in all the senior high schools, there are no positions to teach upper level math. You are told to go to middle schools and teach what is equivalent to fourth grade arithmetic or you are told by some neophyte Principal that he or she wants you to teach one of those fuzzy math programs where kids sit around in circles and instead of being taught math properly, work out “real life” problems (and never are able to take higher level math classes). Of course you are resentful. Your talents are being wasted. If that were made, I would be resentful too. Why should I have to prove how good I am after a decade and a half of turning out doctors, scientists, whatever.

We owe this situation to a chancellor who doesn’t have a clue. Instead of doing what was necessary, namely getting rid of the few trouble makers that were bringing down some of the great neighborhood schools, his reesponse is to close the schools, replace them with these new small schools when there is not one iota of evidence these new small schools provide the proper educational environment to meet all the neess of kids. And then you blame the teacher who resents being told he is a day to day substitute teaching special education kids many of whom have behavioral problems (not all but many). Walk a mile in their shoes before you criticize.
QueensParent

My how I just love this discussion thread. For once, there is a frank admittance that there are out there teachers teaching who should not be, probably never, teaching. Yet they are still out there, harming children right and left. And people serious think that the way to deal with a poor teacher is to “help them?” My God are you serious? Fire them! Get them out of classrooms and stop harming children! How about that for a management approach?
http://www.accountabletalk.com Mr. Talk

Quite frankly, QueensParent, it’s a stupid management approach. First of all, I don’t know a single teacher–not one–who thinks incompetent teachers should get to stay in their jobs. Let’s not forget that principals are the ones who hired these supposedly incompetent teachers in the first place. Why would a principal hire an incompetent? Of course, you’ll say the principal didn’t know, but in fact a principal can fire any teacher–for virtually any reason or no reason at all–for the first three years of that teacher’s career. Why aren’t principals held accountable if they hire and retain so-called incompetent teachers?

Many teachers, myself included, spent decades in schools with sparkling records, only to find ourselves staring down the barrel of a gun wielded by a leadership academy principal. My principal wanted me gone, and under your ridiculous “management approach”, I would have been fired. Instead I went to another school where I plan to continue educating children as well as any of my peers for many more years. My current admins love me and the work I do. My students perform at high levels. And there are thousands of teachers just like me who’d be on the unemployment line if people like you had your way.

Educate yourself on education, and then get back to us.
http://www.sinksalive.blogspot.com KitchenSink

Mr. Talk, is there anything you can point to specifically that you think led the new principal to want to push you out? Is it something to do with a change in philosophy, or wanting to clean house and have his or her own people in?

I’m not trying to invalidate your experience, just learn more about how this dynamic works.
GGW

Ariel,

Don’t sweat the vindictiveness on the thread. I’m sure your pulse went up a few notches as you read it! Continue to call ‘em as u see ‘em.
Michael Fiorillo

Kitchen Sink,

Is it your implication that a new principal, who quite likely has far less classroom experience than someone like Mr. Talk, has the right to to remove a seasoned and accomplished teacher because of their “philosophy?” Have you ever heard of professional judgement and academic freedom? Oh, that’s right, professional judgement and academic freedom are relics that tenure and a union contract protect, and you charter folks and your venture capital backers are allergic to them.

Look at your language: you have implied that this teacher is dirt who must be “cleaned” away, and that any new principal has the arbitrary right to hire and fire, without recourse.

You must be quite a pip to work for.
http://www.accountabletalk.com Mr. Talk

KitchenSink, I certainly don’t want to make this thread about me, because it is not. My story is of little relevance here, other than to point out that good teachers are frequently targeted for a variety of reasons, any of which could land them in the ATR pool or the rubber room on incompetence charges or whatever else a vindictive principal might dream up.

I never imagined I’d be within a hair’s breadth of being fired after so many years of dedicated service. I’m sure the thousands of ATRs felt the same as I did. What Ms. Sacks doesn’t realize is that there’s nothing to prevent her from being in the exact same situation some day. (BTW, Ms. Sacks, I’d stop making disparaging remarks about BloomKlein under my real name if I were you.Just a word to the wise).

I hope it never happens to her or anyone else, but if it does, perhaps she’ll remember how she implied that these dedicated professionals as the ‘dregs’ of the profession.
Becky

Ariel,

After reading these comments, I applaud you for yanking the curtains back so the stage is revealed. It was amazing to me that so many people took offense to you questioning the current situation that is not providing” highly qualified teachers” in every classroom.
Pogue

Jeez’, I wish someone would yank the curtains back on Bloomberg and reveal how so many politicians and leaders roll over for him.

“Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!”
http://www.teacherleaders.typepad.com/teachmoore TeachMoore

Like an earlier commenter on this thread, I find this ATR system in NYC baffling. I too work in an open shop state where teachers have neither tenure nor collective bargaining. The thing is, even without those protections, it is rare–almost unheard of–for a teacher to be fired for incompetence. Generally here, administrators find it easier to simply let contracts expire and not rehire them (similar to the ATR process you describe, but without a salary). From what you all have described, it sounds more like this ATR system might be a way for principals or higher administrators to eliminate people they may simply not like (???) as well as those who are not doing a good job. But, the process begs the question, if the person were in fact doing such a bad job, why not just put up the evidence of that and have the person removed from the profession period, rather than continue to pay them a salary? Perhaps what we really need is to examine our processes of evaluating teachers to ensure that those who are doing the work of teaching get rewarded (and protected from unfair dismissal or job loss) and that those who are not get removed.
I noticed that…

Here’s how I see it. New teachers come into the system thinking that they are miracle workers and start pointing at veteran(seasoned) teachers as out-of-touch educators. These seasoned teachers, who were excessed from their large schools, are being treated as liabilities in other schools when they were once an asset in those phased out schools. They are placed unwillingly in a school that they don’t want to be in and are not wanted, either. So the newbies make the conclusion, by assumption, that these seasoned teachers are not pulling their weight or how Ms. Sacks states, ” they behave like incompetent substitutes. No order, no real planning, no real” teaching.” If teachers put in over 15 years in the classroom and have always received a satisfactory rating at the end of the school year and now they are displaced because of the Bloomberg-Klein system of closing schools and pitting the inexperienced against the experienced, do you think it is fair for someone with so few years in the system to categorically think that they are “incompetent subsitutes”. Principals rate teachers. Teachers do not rate teachers. Principals must provide professional support to those teachers who are weak and help them to become competent in their field. Principals MUST make the final decision of who get tenure or not. Principals MUST do their job of keeping track of those teachers for three years. Principals MUST show documentation of how they provided professional support and assistance to those teachers. Ergo, those ATRs have tenure because the principals deemed them fit and competent to teach. You are not all of sudden incompetent because you were unwillingly excessed out of a phased school. If principals don’t their job, you cannot blame the teachers for their tenure.

Here’s something else that peeves me. If a principal interviews 37 ATRs and none were fit to be hired, I’m wondering what type of interviewing questions were asked. Or did the principal see that these ATRs would show their union strength and the principal felt threatened by this. Remember many principals want to hire teachers that will make the data look good at the cost of true teaching and learning.

Let’s go Back to the Future – Newbies will eventually become “seasoned” teachers and they will eventually, in 15 years, be face to face with a bunch of newbies who will think that Ariel Sacks is a liability of the system and should be terminated for “No order, no real planning, no real” teaching.”"
DISGUSTED former ATR

I found your blog to be completely insulting. I have been teaching for 14 years..the last 6 in a wonderful DOE school. After 5 years there I was excessed along with 7 others because of severe budget cuts. It had nothing to do with our performance. The last 7 hired were the teachers to go. My principal was devastated that he had to cut so many wonderful teachers. Why didn’t I get a job right away? I was told to leave my stuff in my room..more money comes in over the summer… I will find you something… dont; worry about it..and then by September my principal was unable to place us because no teachers left and no money came in over the summer. I was then left to scramble to find a job along with the hundreds of others in my same position. I am now in a CTT classroom working my butt of every day to do what I love most…teach children. Never in my LIFE did I see myself getting excessed. I left my former students and dear friends behind. I now travel an extra 15 minutes (add that to the 1 hr commute I already had) People assume that because you are/were an ATR you are incompetent. You should be ashamed of yourself for passing such judgment. It COULD happen to you…Maybe then you would see how horrible it feels. And YOU are a teacher? It makes me sick that someone who can be so hurtful and judgmental gets in front of a classroom every day. It will come back to you. It will…
http://ednotesonline.blogspot.com/ norm

Look at the hysteria. “For once, there is a frank admittance that there are out there teachers teaching who should not be, probably never, teaching. Yet they are still out there, harming children right and left. And people serious think that the way to deal with a poor teacher is to “help them?” My God are you serious? Fire them! Get them out of classrooms and stop harming children! How about that for a management approach?”

My God, the humanity.

Where’s the hysteria over the fact that every Black kid gets stopped numerous times by cops who profile them? Some kids even get killed. Where’s the push to remove poor cops?

Where’s the hysteria over these same “harmed” children by bad teachers who have to go to emergency rooms with probably the same percentage of bad doctors and other health care professionals? Some children even die due to nad medical care. Doctors have lifetime tenure, even those that kill people.

Where’s the hysteria over the often poor legal services poor communities get- yes passing the Bar is like tenure and there are plenty of bad lawyers. Our market based merit pay ed deformers probably agree with this one since the highest paid must be the best. But I don’t agree. I think there are bad lawyers who do a lot more harm than bad teachers.

Do you think there are no poor officers leading soldiers in war? That there are no deaths due to poor leadership? Where’s the hysteria over some of these same kids who grow up and go to war and don’t come back.

And should I mention the state of politicians who do immense harm to kids and adults? Think George Bush and how many former kids were way more than harmed.

Let the witch hunt for poor teachers continue.
Marty

Ariel (wow, lots of new posts since your response to me), I’m not sure we need to talk about hypotheticals when we have an actual case in front of us where, clearly, the principal, if aware of the ATR’s behavior, is not doing his or her job.

But I’ll tell you something I learned years ago when I worked for a union: The contract is just a piece of paper. The side that is tougher, smarter, and more persistent wins the battles. If your principal can’t stand up to an ATR who reads the newspaper in the classroom, he or she doesn’t deserve the position. Blaming the union would be the most pathetic kind of excuse-making for poor leadership. And your using this case as reason to imply that we should lose one of our basic democratic rights (due process) is short-sighted and dangerous.
Marty

Interesting comment by TeachMoore. I’ve heard that teachers in non-union states are less likely to be fired than unionized teachers (I think the article was in Counterpunch). Maybe QueensParent should move to Alabama and go on a quest to get rid of the bad teachers there who are being protected by???
http://www.OldMasterPortraits.com DAVID PAKTER

Regarding: MS. ARIEL SACKS

__________________________________

This individual appears to harbor great and deep seated anger that she is expected to impart her infinite knowledge to people whose salary is twice what Ms. Sacks currently earns.

Apparently Ms. Sacks, when she one day becomes “Chancellor Sacks”, will, on her first day of occupying the former Chancellor’s office pen a Decree that a new system will be enacted regarding teacher salaries.

There will be no Salary Differentials automatically awarded to teachers who earn education credits or Master’s degrees because it will be too cumbersome for Chancellor Sacks to vet what type or amount of “useful” knowledge was gained from those education credits or Masters degrees.

As for Salary increases based on years of teaching/Longevity, according to Chancellor Sacks, after age 35 or 40 it will clearly be logical that a teacher’s Salary should decrease by say 10 % per year as the brain cells of all those “old nags” begin to atrophy and clearly those “has been” veteran teachers would be best put out to pasture to vegetate and just graze all day til they are ready to be sent to the glue factory.

In the world according to “Chancellor” Sacks, just as in the world according to the present “Legend in his own mind”, the educationally uncredentialed, Faux “Chancellor” Joel klein, Esq., all that came before will gradually be eliminated as if it never existed.

The millions of people who were products of the NYC schools system for the past Century were obviously all “cheated” and prevented from obtaining a first class education by antiquated methods and people who refused to change with the times. Clearly- deadwood all of them.

How fortunate are we to have had a Mayor, whose Townhouse is just down the street from me, who in his infinite wisdom selected a former Federal Prosecutor to take control of the destinies of one million predominantly at risk, (due to poverty), children.

But now we are “saved”. The entire system is well on the way to being totally Privatized.

Beloved American Capitalism and “Chancellor” Klein and soon to be “Chancellor Sacks, will rescue us all from a supposedly dilapidated system that has outlasted its usefulness.

Oh “Brave New World that hath such people in it”.

All will soon be righted, all the old nags and old hags and Atlantic ocean Dead Wood, the flotsam and jetsam of all the education world’s endless seas will be no more.

People like myself, “aberrations” apparently in time and space, who went from Teacher of the Year, decorated in NY City Hall by Mayor Rudy Giuliani, to hated, despised, villified, Whistle-Blower, confined for four years and counting to four of “Chancellor” Klein’s Rubber Room gulags, will become a thing of the past.

“Chancellor Sacks”, learning from and following in the foot steps of “Chancellor” Joel Klein, Esq. will make certain that any teacher who does not “know his/her place” will never last long enough in the system to have anything of which to report.

The system may one day find a way to rid themselves of my presence, but Klein and his countless lapdogs, lackeys, stooges and sycophants have a long road to tow ahead of them.

And even if they succeed by engaging in criminal behavior, that will not stop my Federal Lawsuit from proceeding.

I will live long enough to see “Chancellor” Joel Klein, Esq., stand in the Dock and be Sworn in to Testify under risk of Perjury as a Defendant in my Federal case- even if NY City Sheriffs must bring him by force in hand-cuffs, against his will.

But on the evening of that day, no doubt the next and future Chancellor will be lying in her bed, dreaming as she must every night that she will wake up to read a six column headline across the top of the New York Times that says in huge ivory black letters:

Chancellor “Ariel” – Sacks Another Trainload of Teachers”
__________________________________
http://www.sinksalive.blogspot.com KitchenSink

Geez, Michael F, I thought I was using neutral terminology. For the record I don’t think “cleaning house” is a respectful term – but unfortunately it’s language I’ve heard over and over again in management across a variety of professions.

I don’t know what really happened to Mr. Talk or the ATRs Ariel describes. I’m just trying to find out more. And I thought Mr. Talk sharing the principal’s perspective, or at least surface explanation, would be helpful.
Ariel Sacks

Marty is right. At this point if an ATR or any teacher at my school is not fulfilling basic requirements of his or her job, it is the job of the principal to take action using due process. It is also the job of my principal to explain expectations and procedures to the ATRs placed at my school and give them the support they need to do their jobs.

I did not write about my situation in order to suggest that ATR’s lose their jobs. I am sorry if that has been the effect of my post. I see now the damage that could cause–I become political fuel for the people who want to save money by getting rid of “expensive” experienced teachers who’ve done nothing wrong, but work in a school that was closed down, or where funding was cut. Although it happens in other professions a lot, and people are left to find new jobs on their own, I value the job security our contract provides and our union protects. Teaching is too personal and full of risk-taking to have to worry that you could lose your job if the principal doesn’t like you or a choice you made. There needs to be due process for all of us.

I am going to take Rhoda’s advice and not discuss the situation at my school any more than I already have. In my opinion, the situation is unacceptable on a number of levels, but that may may not be for discussion here.

I think Renee brings up some productive direction: “Perhaps what we really need is to examine our processes of evaluating teachers to ensure that those who are doing the work of teaching get rewarded (and protected from unfair dismissal or job loss) and that those who are not get removed.”

It seems like policy makers want to change teacher evaluation and the only thing they seem to be thinking about is using test scores, which I think would be a huge mistake.

Is our current evaluation system working?

What should be the goal of teacher evaluation? Feedback for the teacher? A way to identify and support ineffective teachers? A way to terminate ineffective teachers? A way to encourage and reward effective teaching?

If our current evaluation system is not working, what changes could be made to it that would benefit teachers and students?
http://MoreThoughtful.blogspot.com ceolaf

Everyone,

I think that Ms. Sacks has made some amazing mistakes in posting this piece as she has. However, she has also stuck around to answer her critics. She has not stooped the the level of some of the commenters whom — I believed — crossed the line and got personal in their disagreements with her. She has tried to defend herself, has asked (some) commenters to explain more about what they are saying, and has attempted to address all of our objections honestly.

She has even admitted some amount of fault.

Frankly, I think that the personal attacks in this thread against Ms. Sacks mark a real low point in what I have on this site. For all her poor judgment, Ms. Sacks has not lied or misrepresented herself or her views. She has tried to be honest. And she clearly has strived to accessible.

I feel bad for Ms. Sacks that she has had so many people pointing to how they think she is wrong, and how they think she approached this issue poorly. That’s a lousy position to be in, even if it is of her own making. But I really feel bad for the site that so many — I count four, but others may count differently — crossed the line of decency. It was surely hard enough for her with all the substantive disagreements.

I disagree with her on a number of levels, but I applaud her integrity in her sticking around. I have no doubt that the majority of commenters who have NOT engaged in ad hominem or personal attacks respect her willingness to engage and respond, even if we disagree with her on the substance of her post.

I hope that Ms. Sacks sticks around. I hope that she comments on other posts, responds to other people’s comments, and even continues to cross post from her own blog. Obviously, she’ll think twice about doing it again, and hopefully she’ll be more careful in thinking about impact of what she says in public forums on the people she works with. You see the very fact that she has a different view than me — and than so many of us — makes her a *more* valuable contributor to the site. If she’s willing to continue to engage like this, I welcome her continued involvement with Gotham Schools.
Ariel Sacks

Thank you ceolaf. You’re right, the personal attacks have been hard, mostly because I did not realize there would be a fight. If I’d known how deeply I would offend other teachers, I would have written a different post. But I’ve learned from this discussion, and appreciate the commenters who’ve really engaged around the issues. I think many of us in education are in our own bubbles, where we discuss issues with others with whom we know we agree. For me, the debate here has made me see the edges of my own bubble a little clearer, and that seems really important.
http://MoreThoughtful.blogspot.com Alexander Hoffman

Ariel,

I’m going to keep making Ted Sizer references, though he deserves better.

The teacher evaluation system we have been using for so long is just another dimension of Horace’s Compromise. As long as teachers don’t create trouble for principals, principals won’t create trouble for them.

Do a “good” lesson when you’re being observed, don’t question the principals, and do a little bit to take things off of their plates/desks, and you’ll be fine. But if parents call, kids complain, teachers ask challenging questions or teachers even do a real lesson when being observed? That’s where principals start to notice.

Teacher evaluations is like students’ homework. Just do it the way you are supposed to do it and you’ll be fine.

It would be great if principals would allow great teachers who really contribute to students’ education do their thing, even when they are a pain in the ass. It would be great if principals worked to remove teachers who do nothing for their kids, but make their principal’s lives easier. But let’s be honest. Let’s look at what happens in classrooms between students and teachers. Brilliant pain in the ass students who create trouble, don’t comply but have totally mastered the material don’t get good grades. Nice, cooperative students who follow the rules and do everything they can to help the teacher manage to pass, even when they don’t really entirely understand the material.

Obviously, I am painting with a broad brush. There really are some fantastic principals who will bend over backwards to accommodate great teachers, and who focus on teacher effectiveness without regard to how much easier these teachers makes their lives. However, there are not even close to 1500 of them in this city.

I think Ted’s challenge to all of us as educators has been how to re-imagine schooling, and by extension the principalship, so that real substantive and lasting education for students is achieved.
sharese perry

Look, Ariel is 100% accurate of her assessment on ATR teachers. I am in the same position at my school. The only difference is I am a long-term sub trying to get hired, but duev to the hiring freeze I can’t. So I team-teach with an ATR; needless, to say I am experiencing everything Ariel has stated. The only difference is she has guts to state it and everone is attacking her. They do say the truth hurts!
Michael Fiorillo

KS,

My point was that by using the language you did, you were expressing overwhelming management bias in the guise of a “simple” question. Your unexamined assumptions rang off the page. You yourself then admit using a common management phrase. No, it’s not very pretty one, is it? Not pretty, but quite revealing.

Notice, for instance, that your reasons for Mr. Talk being targeted did not include ” principal’s desire to intimidate and send a message to the faculty” “power hunger” or “DOE policy.”

I’m upfront about my pro-labor and pro-teacher biases, which I find are are validated in the overwhelming majority of cases. I’m just proposing that you examine yours before you hide behind the “Gee, I was only asking” defense.
Michael Fiorillo

Ms. Sacks,

In my initial response to your posting, I described you as “clueless” and “arrogant.” Harsh terms, but I stand by them, for the following reasons.

Your posting was filled with unexamined assumptions that tilted overwhelmingly toward the DOE/corporate ed deform view of urban education, despite your later hedged statements about the mayor’s actions. In addition, your words and tone give off a powerful feeling of your sense of self-importance.

Let’s look at the data, shall we?

Your posting accepts at face value the Principal’s statement about her 37 “depressing” interviews. But why should we do that? Principal’s have been given a material incentive to not hire veteran teachers. Why did you not leave open even the possibility that this was a self-serving statement on the Principal’s part?

Your rhetorical questions about why no ATRs were hired (Paragraph 5) at your school embed and parrot the DOE/ed deformer line about ATRs. Why not ask, “Were these veteran teachers so demoralized by their abuse at the hands of the DOE and their betrayal by the union that they’ve become totally shell-shocked and dispirited?”

You uncritically talk about a “solution” (Paragraph that is at best little more than gaming the system.

Your professed sympathy for the ATRs (Paragraph 10) after you’ve attacked them comes off as superficial and condescending.

You say you do not fault the mayor. Perhaps you should educate yourself about how the Mayor and Chancellor’s actions are part of a nationwide – indeed, global – attack on public education and teachers. You explain his behavior based on his own premises and justifications. Isn’t critical thinking supposed to be something we teach our kids? If so, where’s yours?

Your statement about TFAs being “far more committed” shows your uncritical channeling of corporate ed deform rhetoric and PR. As Alexander Hoffman accurately pointed out in a comment, exactly how how “committed” is someone who parachutes from the Ivy League into a community for the express purpose of only staying 2 or 3 years? Do you really think this is a viable, sustainable, long term way to provide education to urban youth? Your post implies that it does. At least Teaching Fellows approach teaching as a career, not an often patronizing form of resume-building.

Your final paragraph leaves the reader with the distinct impression that you see yourself as the only adult who is put-upon in this situation, and that everything depends on your unique expertise and desire to help your students. Sorry, but that’s arrogant.

I’m sure the personal attacks against you were upsetting, but should you really be so surprised? People who’ve spent years teaching the children of NYC – many of whom have attended the weddings, college graduations and funerals of their students – are being attacked from all sides. Stay in the classroom a little longer and you may find yourself among them (unless, of course, your pro-management biases get you the “brass ring” of an administrative job).

Your post uncritically expressed and validated a widespread campaign to vilify and professionally destroy teachers. Are they, who rightfully see themselves as the targets of an Orwellian campaign to blame them for the ills of a looted society, expected to quietly accept their sacrifice to the Gods of the Market? Granted, you’re ultimately not the real enemy, but, harsh as it is, people were right to set you straight.
Ariel Sacks

Mr. Fiorello,

I agree with your criticisms of TFA.

I agree that I make a mistake in using my principal’s comment about the 37 ATR’s interviews, because that was hearsay. I wasn’t there for any of the interviews, so I don’t really know. I also had nothing to do with the decision to wait out the hiring freeze, or to use the ATRs as subs instead of filling the vacancies with them. You’re right, I trusted my principal’s judgment, and now recognize that there is a lot of room for error in that.

I also made a mistake in my post by implying that the ATRs at my school are representative of all ATRs in the city. I did make a false assumption there, painting with too broad a brush, as so many have pointed out. Today I’ve apologize for that on my blog in a new post.

We both hate the way the politicians and media paint teachers as the problem in public schools, vilifying experienced teachers. At the same time, do you admit that there are some incompetent teachers in classrooms, and that they make an impact on working conditions for all teachers? Should not the union care about that too? Do you believe the teacher evaluation system is efficient enough to remove the few teachers who are not fit to teach? If so, I suppose we just have an unfortunate situation that principals just need to take the time to deal with. But if not, we have a deeper issue that needs to be dealt with. If we do not begin to speak up about it, then we are vulnerable to then policy makers from Duncan to Klein will come up with their own ways of dealing with it without any teacher input, as they already are, using test scores as the vehicle.

I agree that teachers are being scapegoated to divert attention from the fact that American politics–in action–doesn’t really seem care about public education. But if we blindly defend all teachers just because they are teachers, we are more vulnerable to those anti-teacher folks who will find fault in our blind defense and seek to discredit anything we have to say.
Michael Fiorillo

Ms. Sacks,

I appreciate your openness to criticism and continuing response to it. I also appreciate that you write under your own name, which too many people posting and commenting on these sites refuse to do.

In response to your questions, of course there are many bad teachers, but I’d say that they have a more negative impact on their students than their colleagues. I’ve had some really dreadful teachers in my day, some of them verbally, emotionally and even physically abusive. Nevertheless, I survived. As for the young people in the public schools, unfortunately too many of them face threats and challenges in their lives far worse than incompetent teachers.

You must examine the context in which the debate about teacher quality and education in general is taking place. I don’t want to minimize our potential impact on the lives of our students, but why this (relatively) sudden obsession with the impact teachers have on the lives of poor children, especially from people who’ve previously had no concern whatsoever with education or poverty?

If you read Mayor Bloomberg’s autobiography, you will not see a single word about public education. Where was he, and others of his ilk, when 15,000 public school teachers were laid off in the 1970′s, a devastating blow to the public schools that took over a generation to recover from (to just use NYC as an example)? Bill Gates was busy building a computer software monopoly, which ironically goes unmentioned in all the diatribes about the government “monopoly” in public education. Eli Broad was busy building white-flight suburbs and gated communities in the Southwest. The Walton family was busy siphoning off for their personal benefit and ideological programs the unpaid wages and benefits of their employees. What gives these people the right to use their wealth to buy educational policy and proclaim themselves protectors of the rights of poor urban children? What gives them and their mouthpieces the right to set the terms of debate?

Look at the dismal position of the United States in most social indices. True, we stack up as mediocre in education, but that’s a big improvement over our rock bottom – among developed countries – status in areas like life expectancy, and child and maternal mortality. Where’s the plutocratic and editorial outrage over that? Where’s the outrage over the outrageous incarceration rate in this country, where many prisoners serve years in jail for non-violent crimes? In other words, why is the indignation and outrage so selective? It’s because, as fields that have already been privatized, health care and prisons (where, as reported in today’s Times, Arizona is privatizing its entire prison system, including Death Row: talk about perverse incentives!) are doing what they are supposed to do. The schools, on the other hand, have yet to maximize shareholder value.

Thus the attack on teachers and their unions, which are in the strategically most important position to defend the public’s right to participate in the education of their children, and to protect academic freedom. And thus the attack on their weakest link, bad teachers.

So, I have to disagree with you about our need to accept the ed deformers terms of debate about teacher quality, when it consciously excludes other professions. Where’s the outrage on the newspaper editorial pages over incompetent doctors? A few years ago, a doctor in Queens was found to be using used syringes on his patients. Not only did he not go to jail, he kept his license. Every job and profession is filled with incompetents: why the obsessive focus on teachers?

By engaging in debate with corporate education deformers on their own terms, teachers fall into a trap. What the the ed deformers do not distort, they will ignore. Klein, Duncan and all the other privateers must be actively challenged and fought, and not provided a few pitiful scapegoats, because those sacrificial victims will not satisfy them: they will keep coming until they have us, and our students, under their boots.
http://www.sinksalive.blogspot.com KitchenSink

Michael F, if all of the comments from your ideological colleagues were as cogently, rationally and calmly stated as your last entry, we’d have a much more productive discussion. And you make me ashamed for engaging at the petty level, which I sometimes do when I get riled up. (It’s made possible with a pseudonym, which you ably point out…but I’m certainly not ready to “come out.”)

You have a lot of good points, but I think you go to far. We’re humans; that’s why there’s always a lot of stuff wrong with everything we do. You left out the military-industrial complex, the constant distortion in the media on just about any issue you’d like, and on and on.

However, just because some rich people took advantage of their while privilege and their connections to make boat loads of money doesn’t mean their ideas are wrong.

Look around – the education system IS broken. I taught in a poor neighborhood before there were ATRs, and I have to qualify my comments by saying that my heroes are still some of the veteran teachers who had been at my school for decades and were at the pinnacle of their profession, but there were LOTS of BAD teachers, and the principal was out of control. If you read the fine print, I don’t think Bloomklein and Duncan etc. are just vilifying teachers. It’s about leadership, and it’s about a strong school culture. Hiring, cultivating and retaining an effective teaching team – and yes, that means as in any other profession on occasion removing ineffective employees – is a prominent way that school leaders can drive a school toward success.

I sense a hint of defensiveness, a fear that work protections won over the course of two generations will be chipped away, leading to the slippery slope of denigrating the profession.

We both want the same thing – I think the teaching profession should be lifted up as the noble and intellectually challenging work that it is. All we are saying is, “Give getting-rid-of-bad-teachers a chance.” Lots of people with lots of different ideologies – including 60s radicals – would agree with that sentiment. There are many you criticize who do not want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Michael Fiorillo

KS,

I seriously question whether whether you and I want the same thing.

But there is no question in my mind whatsoever that corporate ed deformers and our oligarchical overclass wants something very different from me. They want a privatized system where they call the shots, a system that inculcates and replicates the narrow market fundamentalism and will to power that has governed their lives and their domination over others. They want an educational system that serves their narrow self interest. Everything they say about teacher quality is just a smokescreen for that.

Behavior is the most honest form of communication, so I don’t don’t only listen to what they say; I watch what they do, and I see them doing their damnedest to create a separate and unequal, anti-democratic school system in the cities.

I see them pitting minority communities against each other, and having the effrontery to use the rhetoric of the civil rights movement as a cover.

I see them manipulating the idealism of young people to become fifth columnists in the teaching field.

I see them using natural disasters and economic crises that they bear a lot of responsibility for to force their ideologies into practice.

I see them blaming the failures of the schools, not on their unwillingness to adequately fund them over time, but on the people who have dedicated years to teaching the students in them.

I see them using their wealth, in the name of so-called philanthropy, to instead entrench their interests.

You say you sense defensiveness. Would you not have me defend myself when attacked? Or am I to thank these people for attacking my job protections, my professional autonomy, my academic freedom? Should I thank them when they come to steal my pension, which they can reliably be expected to do? Should I thank them for taking away my political rights as a parent to have some input into my children’s education?

Please, sir, may I have some more?
Loren Steele

Michael was exactly right when he stated that “By engaging in debate with corporate education deformers on their own terms, teachers fall into a trap.” ATRs are not my problem, nor are they the UFT’s problem. It’s all too common for incompetent leaders to fix their own mistakes by dumping on their employees or citizens. They agree to contract terms and back out when the contract becomes a financial or political inconvenience. There are layers upon layers of educational reforms that will have a more profound affect on our broken system than the scapegoating of displaced veteran teachers. It’s a speck versus mote discussion, and I’m sick of reading about it ad nauseum in every education forum. Kitchen Sink, there is no logical reason to give firing teachers a chance. There is no research drawing a causal link between the quality of teachers and the state of American education. I am quite sure that most people will be disappointed with the results of your intentions. I don’t blindly defend teachers, Ms. Sacks, but I will point the finger to say “there but for the grace of God go thee.” ATRs are the victims of bad luck and poor administrative decisions, and rather than support them or let them be, you join in the stoning party.
yomister

I think Ariel’s post is refreshing. It certainly reflects the greater diversity of opinion within the NYC teacher population.
Rhoda

Ariel,
I first wanted to laud you for being so open to all the criticism and for responding to it. I have a lot of respect for you in being such a “mensch”.

You brought up the question of teacher evaluation and I think it is valid. However, before we do that, we need to bring up the question of curriculum and how teachers are not part of the process of creating curriculum. What I am finding as a math teacher is that I am teaching less math and more coloring. I am wasting my time with students creating goals, or having them create “pretty” end products so that clueless visitors (clueless as to what learning really looks like) can see that “learning” is really taking place.

When my students come to me, they are don’t know basic computation skills, they don’t know their multiplication tables and have no clue as to what an x or y axis is. I don’t know exactly what is taught in the elementary or middle schools, but nothing is retained for very long. I am successful because I teach around the various inane mandates that we get every year.

Learning is not always a burst of colors. Learning can be a quiet epiphany or even something that takes days and is not so exciting to watch.

I mention all of this because before we can evaluate teachers we need to even decide what makes someone an excellent teacher. I have my theories–and I am sure that we all agree that teaching is not just a science but also an art. You have to have the personality for it. You have to love children. You have to be an expert in your field, an expert communicator and be able to engage students…..engage them by creating fun and meaningful activities–using a plethora of methods.

You quote Renee about evaluating the work of teachers….and I agree that is paramount. However, we need to look at the system we navigate around–the overcrowded schools, the decaying buildings, trailers that substitute for classrooms, the lack of funds, class sizes that were supposed to have been reduced but have not, the unwillingness of the DOE and chancellor truly to involve parents and the community in schools and so on. Did I mention testing, testing, testing and more testing….

I think I am rambling, but I do appreciate and share many of your frustrations. There are incompetents (administrators are included in this!!!) who negatively affect our students and make it harder for us to do our jobs. In my years of teaching (and I want to add that when I started there were so many 30+ year teachers..now there are close to none), I have yet to figure out how to address teacher/administration evaluations and how to help/weed out those who are not up to the job. I think an open conversation about that would be terrific!
Ceolaf

KitchenSink,

If it is about ladership. Then why favor a system that cuts new leader off from support? Why focus on recruiting new leaders who have yet to becomes master teachers — even though they will be the primary support for the deelopng teachers I their schools?

I think that leadership is key. And I think quite a bit about leadership development. A year a an acamedt, even if followed up with a residency. Is notthe end of the process. This is especially an issue when new leaders have so little experience before their promotions to principals.

In fact, the charter and “autonomy” modells put more on school leaders, making their sustained develoent all the more important. Ms. Sacks mentioned that her principal has less teaching experience than she dies. How long was he an AP before getting his own school?
Marsha Ratzel

Ariel,

Well, you have certainly stirred up a hotbed of conversation. I think if more people were willing to talk about the pink elephants in the room then we wouldn’t have so many pink elephants!!!

It is one of the weaker areas in our profession…where we examine ourselves and the flaws that we have to see how we can improve. From reading through all the posts, it seems that these excess teachers reveal a problem within your system and the lack of any method for evaluating who should stay and who should go.

That problem isn’t unique to your system though. Many of us labor with teachers who shouldn’t be teaching anymore but we don’t have a system that acknowledges this. Where I work there are many structures in place to aid struggling teachers, giving them every opportunity to improve and learn…and yet it they don’t, they are never fired. There is a saying where I work that they “pass around the trash”. I think that’s a bit harsh, but I think the element of truth is there. It’s easier to transfer someone somewhere else…where it will be someone else’s problem than to solve it.

The part that breaks my heart in all this comes from who speaks for the children that must suffer through all the years of documentation that it takes to get rid of someone who isn’t doing their job appropriately or to a minimum level. These comments don’t seem directed at what’s best for the students but how should the system protect the adults. That seems sad to me and that we’ve lost our way.

I’m sick of seeing all the protectionism that the union fosters. It’s why I’ve quit paying my dues and want no part of an organization that isn’t designed to improve our profession. When our unions are willing to say that some are not suited for teaching and help get them into job/professions where they could be productive and good employers….then I will return to the fold. Why is it such a bad thing to let someone move onto a job where they can be successful?

Hang in there Ariel….there are many others that probably think exactly as you do but are unwililng to endure the personal attacks.
Polo Colon

Well, Ms. Sacks the crock of baloney you wrote just demonstrates your own ignorance and incompetence! And you do sound like one of those administrators-gone-wild!

Looks like you might be a sycophantic supporter of the ignorant and incompetent team of Chancellor Bloomberg and his robot. Sounds like you are making a play for some job with them as another administrative terrorist! Why am I not surprised?
http://sinksalive.blogspot.com KitchenSink

Geez, Polo, lay off the angel dust.

Michael F, you’re now talking about a much broader set of concerns than any micro policy decision in education. It’s hard to discuss finer points of policy when it all comes back to the big conservative conspiracy lurking out there. It’s not that I disagree with you on your points, but on those on which I do agree, I’m doing so as a concerned citizen and participant, and I’m not seeing the erosion of my voice or the voice of those in the community I serve. If anything, the charter movement is providing more agency for families.

If destroying public education and replacing it with a schooling-industrial complex is the game, why aren’t your “deformers” also putting charters, etc., into wealthier communities? Where is the Upper East Side or Carroll Gardens Charter School? Perhaps it is yet to come, we’ll see. My view of the charter movement in this city is that reformers and parents are taking advantage of the political aims of your conspirators to provide the kind of choices for poor families that middle class and wealthy families have always enjoyed.

Ceolaf, I’m as confused/concerned about the leadership academy profile as you are. The academy, drawing from the profile well described in other comments, is clearly not recruiting and training “principal as instructional leader.” Charter operators generally know that it’s not possible to have one person be the leading executive at the school and the instructional leader. That’s why most charters operate with an Executive Director – Principal arrangement (that’s two people), or Co-Directors, etc. I suppose the chancellor is heading down that road. But there doesn’t seem to be a plan about the ideal profile for this leadership arrangement.

That said, I know next to nothing about the leadership academy other than the spirited and hard working folks I’ve met who have graduated from it. They have definitely drunk the BloomKlein kool aid, but there are many in the system (like me and I suppose Ariel) who don’t think that’s such a bad thing.

And for the record, I don’t like to shop at Wal-Mart because of their labor practices. I am a registered independent but as my board chair regularly reminds me, the only Republican I’ve ever voted for, in my years upon years of voting, is this so called election-stealing, charter-giving, under-served-families-helping ‘corrupt’ mayor. So don’t pin me with your anti-this or anti-that ideological label.
http://MoreThoughtful.blogspot.com ceolaf

KitchenSink,

I was contrasting the Bloomberg/Klein model with something that might actually help school quality. What do we know about their agenda, in this area?

* Testing.
* Break up large school.
* Form more small schools.
* Open more charter schools.
* Leadership academy.
* Give principals more power/authority.
* Shut down DOE supports for principals.

I’ve got to say, it’s news to me that “most charters operate with an Executive Director – Principal arrangement (that’s two people).” Are there actually numbers on this? If not, it sounds like the the kind of thing that Ken Hirsh might want to compile. (Hey, Ken! You out there? Where you been? You ever coming back?) However, even with a colleague to help with business matters, removing centralized support and services for principals still leave more on the the principals’ desk. Perhaps you can explain a bit more about how this model better supports principals and their ability to support teachers than the old NYC Principal with APO (i.e. assistant principal of organization)?

But I was not talking about the charter model, in and of itself. Rather, I was speaking about it i the context of the larger Bloomberg/Klein agenda. They clearly believe quite strongly in the ability of school leaders to run great schools, and that their either are already enough good ones or they can create them fast enough to ensure their other reforms’ success. I see a shortage of great leaders, and think that it takes far longer to develop them than Bloomberg and Klein allow.
citizenette

Go on and tell the truth, Ariel, even if folks on this blog don’t want to hear it. I think your piece was well written and a great window into the ATR situation. I keep reading comments about ATRs being awesome teachers but anyone who’s tried to hire from that pool knows that is not true. Let the liars keep lying, Ariel, but someone has to tell the truth. Don’t back down.
http://www.teachingquality.org Barnett Berry

It is impossible to respond to all of the 88 previous posts, but kudos in particular to Ariel Sacks who is raising important policy issues as a teacher leader who is willing to confront teaching and learning problems head on. Also, kudos to Michael Fiorillo for his thoughtful and civil critique of Ariel’s analysis, reflecting the long-time struggle for unions to overcome administrative abuses of teachers and the students they serve. More kudos for Ariel to point to where she may have overgeneralized her assessment of the ATR situation, as she continues to hold her ground on how and why teachers need to do a better job of establishing and enforcing standards within their ranks. Doing so will give the union the credibility to leverage the kind of grass roots change in school communities run by top-down, so-called “reformers.”
Kathie Marshall

Wow, Ariel, it is mind-boggling to see how much interest and venom your initial post has generated. How easy it has become to attack anonymously rather than try to engage in thoughtful challenges to our own thinking. I respect your willingness to post again and again in an attempt to clarify your position and admit to any weaknesses in your original post.

While as a teacher in Los Angeles I am unfamiliar with the terms “excessing” and ATRs, the situation in NYC is scarily close to that in LA. Just the terms differ, not the content. We, too, are experiencing mayoral pressure to privatize schools, and education is at risk all around us. We had thousands of out-of-classroom teachers forced back into the classroom this year, high school teachers thrust into middle schools, and several thousand teachers just a day away from tenure who were let go. We have 14 new teachers in my middle school this year, all of them displaced; my own core partner is a displaced math coach. There is a lot of emotional turmoil in saying good-bye to the past and moving warily into the new world of education. This is a difficult period for all of us, and it seems you stepped into a mine field on this one. A little civility might go a long way for all of us as we face these new demons, rather than demonizing each other.
Pogue

From what I can remember, no one in the teaching profession got demonized until NCLB, Bloomberg, Klein, and the Rhee’s of education came along. Cops, doctors, lawyers, etc. just don’t seem to get publicly demonized as teachers do. It’s a strange little privatizing world we live in.
http://www.teachingquality.org Barnett Berry

Actually the history of teaching documents the long-standing “demonization” of teachers. Teaching’s occupational history includes longstanding control by laymen, a lack of clarity and rigor in becoming a teacher, and limited prestige and money income — limiting its professional possibilities. As a result teachers have struggled in stave off administrative and political demands for them to teach scripted curriculum while policymakers typically fill classrooms with underprepared teachers during times of shortages. For almost 100 years, woman, who would not only work for much cheaper wages, they were seen as more “naturally” inclined to teach children in a job that did not require a great deal of smarts. Historically, teachers have been seen as those who can nurture students and those needing to take directions from administrative authorities. These historical imperatives remain. But I see hopeful possibilities with public opinion polls suggesting that teachers are one of the most respected and trusted professions. One of the keys will be having the collective voices of teachers focus primarily on teaching and student learning. I wonder how blogs like this one can contribute to the building of that collective voice.
Michael Fiorillo

Barnett Berry,

You make some excellent points. I would only add that in order for teachers to “focus primarily on teaching and student learning,” they have little choice but to struggle to oppose efforts to narrow the definition of and teaching and learning. This inevitably means involvement with the fallen world of politics and power.

Your reference to polls that show teachers as having the respect and trust of the public are also counteracted by well-funded efforts to demonize them and blame them for pathologies that they have little responsibility for. That too implies the need for engagement in the arena of politics and struggle outside the classroom.
http://www.teachingquality.org Barnett Berry

Mike. I could not agree with you more. The question I have is how to best “engage in the arena of politics and struggle outside the classroom.” Can unions do so by leading (not necessarily exclusively, but) with some of the most accomplished teachers, who can help the public make the connection between effective teaching and the political action needed to improve the plight of kids? The so-called reformers have made the case that teachers are the problem. Can well-respected teacher help reframe the discourse? I am betting yes – and actually proud to be working with several teacher unions in efforts to do so.
Michael M.

Two quickies re Pogue:

Two or three generations ago, being a New York City school teacher was a fantastic career move, especially for educated women (including a number of my relatives) at the time. These days, not so. But that started to change well before NCLB.

I too can think of a good number of other industries and professions wherein the “let’s get ‘em young, enthusiastic, and cheap; and stigmatize the experienced (and higher paid)” mantra would be laughed out of the room. If teachers, why not bankers, lawyers, or cardiologists? Why not baseball players? Got bang for the buck?
http://www.teachingquality.org Barnett Berry

Michael M. Right on. I am thinking about the much deserved praise for Captain Sully who landed the USAir plane on the Hudson. (I live in NC but was in the City that day.) He continues to talk about how his experience and its role in his expert decision-making, which resulted in the savings of 100s of lives. while the policy pundits do not question the need for airline pilots to be experienced, the industry is trying to marginalize the likes of Sully – but are having difficulty now because of his story. Now, how we do draw on teachers like Ariel and many others who are posting on this blog to articulate carefully, using both research evidence and documented classroom practices, how and why experienced teachers matter most for student learning?
Mary

Ageism is alive and well in all professions. The difference is, many professionals aren’t protected so can be fired for many different reasons. Many employers will hire someone young who can be molded to the environment in which they are hired be it corporations or legal field, etc. (How many police cadets are in their 40s?) And look at the difference between Sully and the two pilots who missed the Minneapolis airport. Thank goodness they lost their license. I respect the teaching profession, but don’t agree that being seasoned protects a person in other fields.
Michael M.

BB and Mary,
First, it’s great that GS attracts commenters from all over the country. Kudos to the GS crew… and the civility of the commenters.

As to pilots, an excellent example. A pilot’s performance is more or less binary: Arrive safe? A+. But as the above examples show, incompetence and gross dereliction of duty are NOT experience-dependent, and experience such as Sully’s is not valued every day, and not reflected in standardized test scores designed to assess mere proficiency. SAME FOR TEACHERS.

As to cops, another excellent example. Why are rookies so young? My guess, in part: a reflection of the deal the public makes with the recruits. The STARTING pay is lame, but payoff comes later (either through promotion or OT), and the retirement plan is great. Also, NYPD training is great, and many NYPD recruits move on to higher paying jobs in the burbs. SAME FOR TEACHERS.
http://MoreThoughtful.blogspot.com ceolaf wolfhelm

Michael M,

There are many more components to a pilots job than just safety. There are the second concerns of comfort to the passengers, fuel economy and even ability to work with colleagues in a pleasant fashion.

When it comes to safety, I think that there is far more than to assess than merely a safe arrival. Major airline accidents are so rare that such a criteria would do little differentiate pilots and nothing to help us prevent accidents in the future. There actually are behaviors, habits, procedures, knowledge and skill that make a safe arrival more or less dangerous.

Pilots cannot be help accountable for everything that can lead to an disaster. And they cannot be get credit for every component of a safe flight. But the things that do that mitigate risk and increase safety are very important.

And so, they should be judged on what their contribution to the outcome, not the outcome itself. Great players sometimes play on lousy teams, through no fault of their own. Lousy players sometimes play on great teams, through no fault of their own. Pilots are no different. Nor are teachers.
Michael M.

Dang it ceo, can you be a little more thorough? ; – )

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