GothamSchools — daily independent reporting on NYC public schools

“I don’t make the rules”? Really?

As an experienced teacher, displaced by the chancellor’s decision to close my school (he definitely made that decision all by himself with absolutely no input from the community), I have no idea why the city has been recruiting new and inexperienced teachers while displacing the experienced ones that have worked tirelessly for years and years. Despite the hiring freeze, nobody is hiring anyway. Many of the jobs listed for displaced teachers are a hoax, as evidenced by the myriad replies that no openings even exist. Unfortunately, principals are looking for a one-size-fits-all type of teacher who lacks creativity, but only does what they are told for fear of receiving a U rating. Only in education, would experienced members of the profession be thrown out for less experienced ones. Only in education, would principals be looking for candidates who do what they’re told. Only in education, would talented and hard working long-standing educators be asked to work as substitutes and vilified as ATR’s. It is a sham and a blight on the public schools of this city.

Lucky Star, no demand for an apology, but rather a reframe. Isn’t there enough sympathy and concern to go around for everyone? I’m sorry that nyc’s public school children have to experience the closing of their school and the forced migration to school’s outside of their neighborhoods. We can be sorry for the new teachers that can’t be hired and the excessed teachers who are negatively stigmatized (remembering that many excessed teachers were working in the most challenging and difficult of the public schools and thus, more likely to be closed-seems to penalize those of us that remained loyal to challenging environments and needy children!!!) I also pity every single principal in our public schools as he/she is judged solely on the basis of tests scores and seems to be at the mercy of dictators bloomberg/klein. Back to feeling sorry for the children who must adhere to said dictators mandated curriculum in again, a one-size-must-fit-all paradigm and then unquestionably evaluated for special education when they don’t fit into the mold. Frustrating, frustrating, frustrating.

Lucky Star, I would not want you to apologize for venting your feelings. I do take offense, however, to your description of us “pompous wannabe new jacks.” We do understand that the rights of existing teachers must be protected and that the situation is not their fault. To have one school be phased out and another created, while the teachers of the first are all let go is absurd.

We are disturbed by how this situation was created in the first place. You should understand that many of us “new jacks” are very experienced in dealing with the subject material in our areas of specialty and in many cases actually have teaching experience outside of the NYC school system. Although a very selective process was used to form our group, we do understand that we are new to the teaching profession and that nothing can take the place of experience. Those of us who will be able to secure a teaching position in the NYC public school system will be seeking out the advice and experience of those teachers who are willing to share their years of wisdom with us. What we, as individuals, have to offer the students in the NYC public school system are very unique understandings of how the elements of school are applied in the various professions that we come from.

That said, I do share your anger at how the current teachers are being treated in this hiring process. After all, in the future we can very well be put in the same position, ourselves.

Thank you, experienced and talented teacher, for your comments. I couldn’t agree more.

And yes, Chris, I am thankful that you won’t be needing my salty tears, but how much of a sacrifice is it to come to New York City, arguably the greatest city on earth, to become a Teaching Fellow or a TFA member when you are given assistance in securing housing and training during the summer for your new teaching position, among other things ? What’s more is that the Teaching Fellows and TFA memebers get a FREE MASTERS degree while most vets and most traditional teaching candidates have to pay out of pocket for their masters. Also, let’s not forget that Teaching Fellows and TFA members are given preferential treatment during the hiring process, especially when compared to the treatment that the vets receive when they try to transfer schools.

So, is it truly a great sacrifice to come to the NYC under the above described conditions ? I think not!

I skipped the arguing above. Rose makes a very good point though.

@ ‘experienced and talented’ teacher: Not sure why you think no one is hiring. I have a principal who wants to hire me and is waiting until the freeze is lifted.

There are good and bad teachers in the pool. Some of the new teachers will be good and some will be bad.

They should drop the freeze and then allow us all to interview with equal opportunity to be given the job. (taking into account our interviews, demo lessons and previous teaching and other experience). How can you argue that that would be bad for the students?

@Susan: your anecdote proves the experienced teacher’s point. principals choose not to interview ATRs but interview newbies. why? cheaper and easier to influence (no tenure). could the principal who has “promised” to hire you find a great teacher from the ATR pool? yes, but probably more expensive and tenured.

@Matt: your comment [probably] unwittingly adds into the offense taken by most experienced teachers at the chancellor’s policies. [I hope] you didn’t mean to offend every working teacher with your conviction that new teachers are the answer to the “achievement gap” and that current teachers are to blame for the “gap”

The bad thing is that some smaller fellowship programs, like NYC Partnership for Teacher Excellence, which subsidizes a traditional pathway at NYU, which I am a part of, requires recipients to pay back the scholarship if they don’t receive a job, and then say “well, you signed a contract two years ago stating that you would get a job in NYC” and now I’m not finding anything on the New Teacher Finder or seeing any vacancies anywhere in my subject area. So now I fear not only not having a job, but being slammed to pay back a scholarship. It’s a rather frustrating situation.

@reality: my anecdote doesn’t prove the experienced teacher’s point. It isn’t trying to prove any point regarding ‘experienced’ versus ‘new’. In fact the principal who hired me has interviewed many experienced teachers yet still wanted to hire me (a new teacher). And my point isn’t to say all new teachers will be great.

Also about Matt’s post I don’t think anyone shopuld take offense. He didn’t say anything bad about experienced teachers. Just that he’s enthusiastic about closing the achievement gap. He never cited teachers are to blame. Just that enthusiastic, skilled and hardworking teachers ARE the answer.

@ Lucky Star: I’m not taking away yoour right to free speech – I might have been talking about the other person arguing – can’t remember who was arguing but can’t be bothered to check.

@ Leonie Haimson: I agree, this whole thing is a disgrace. I believe the teachers in the pool still have to go to schools for assignments (admin, co/support teaching etc) but even though I’m a new teacher I think that they should be placed in a position.

I also feel that if teachers (new or experienced) aren’t performing, that they should be fired. This would give the best opportunity to NYC kids.

I am a Teaching Fellow. I did not receive assistance in securing housing this summer, nor do I know anyone who has. I received a stipend for summer training that did not cover my rent in certainly one of the greatest and undoubtedly one of the most expensive cities in the world. I will receive a partially-subsidized, not free, master’s degree after working AND taking classes for two years. I already have substantial debt from putting myself through graduate school in social work. I have no evidence that I received preferential treatment during the hiring process; after the hiring restriction on elementary SpEd was lifted, I contacted 106 principals and got one interview out of that. These are not complaints about my situation; these are just the facts related to choices I have made in my life. I did not apply to this program because I am self-centered, self-righteous, selfish, or pompous. Don’t make assumptions about a group comprised of hundreds of people. Direct your vitriol to the DOE, not towards well-meaning people who were recruited based on a faulty or inaccurate premise.

Kitchen Sink, an excellent question, but one that can only be answered going first-hand to the source: individual principals who may be hiding their true job openings, individual teachers who were excessed. Quite ridiculous to try grouping individual teachers (new and experienced) into blobs of stereotypes. As a teacher in excess for the first time (in over 10 years of working for nyc), I am utterly confused at how such a mess has been made by DOE and how many teachers (current and prospective) are all suffering. What do most of us want to do? Just teach. There are more than enough nyc public school children around and class sizes can never be too small. All we need are more school buildings (boost the construction sector of economy) and perhaps some of us would be willing to take a pay cut, or at least agree to no increases in salary, so that the new teachers could be hired. What do you say? Experienced and talented teacher for school chancellor!

Lucky Star, you should be ashamed of yourself. I suggest that you go back and look at your comments and then direct your vitriol at yourself.

Thank you Kaji, Pablo and Matt for standing up for the NYC Teaching Fellows! Since Lucky Star has absolutely no clue how the Teaching Fellows runs, I am glad you helped to clarify things for her so that she can stop dispensing information that is simply NOT TRUE. Teaching Fellows do not receive living accommodations or a FREE master’s degree. I repeat, Teaching Fellows do not receive living accommodations or a FREE master’s degree. In fact, I already had a master’s and did NOT NEED someone to pay for it for me! That said, the hiring situation is unfair all the way around. Nevertheless, Fellows did not create this problem, but now have to live with it. After being recruited, many of us gave up lucrative jobs to serve the children of New York City and the fact of the matter is that now we are currently living in limbo land. And while Fellows may not have as much “teaching experience” as veterans do, they are some of the brighest folks out there hailing from admirable professions – scientists, lawyers, journalists, IT consultants, financial analysts, etc. Many of our skills are very helpful in the classroom as Pablo mentioned above. As a matter of fact, I know many former career-changing Teaching Fellows who today are some of the finest teachers, assistant principals, and principals you could ever meet. So while you may be peeved at the situation, insulting Teaching Fellows, TFAs or any other alternatively certified teacher is distasteful and low… I hope that you are not teaching your students that same lack of citizenship….

I am one of the teaching fellows from cohort 18 that is yet to find a position. It upsets me because the entire process of being interviewed, going down to the DOE in Brooklyn, getting fingerprinted, going through 7 weeks of very rigorous training, and then being told that even though you have multiple degrees in Chemistry and Biology, high schools cannot hire you! I went to this new teacher orientation just to hear Joel Klein speak, hoping he would say something positive about the HUNDREDS of Science fellows that are being slapped in the face by the DOE. Any reasonable person knows that we cannot survive in NYC without a reasonable income, not a $2500 stipend over the summer. I don’t understand how a department that runs the education system can be so unwilling to heed our plights and try to help us find a resolution. We are people that want to be in the classroom; we want to help close the achievement gap. But we’re being shafted! So many of my colleagues have given up other professions to do this, and now it is a terrible reflection on the fellows and the DOE that we don’t have jobs. Especially after being told how huge the deficit is for Science and Math teachers. Are the kids going to really benefit from all of this?

To Lucky Star and others –

To clarify, we NYCTFers have received no housing assistance. It’s Teach for America folks who get housing. Folks in NYCTF came out here on their own dime or are living on couches or with relatives or are already established New Yorkers with their own apartments. The master’s degree is not free. It’s $6,600, which is still pretty nice, but is not free. This year we were only hired in shortage areas — at LIU every single one of us is being trained in special education, which has always been a teacher shortage area, and almost every one of us is working in very small new schools in Brooklyn. So no English or Social Studies or Phys Ed. And another thing — most of the folks in cohort 18 (at LIU anyway) do have teaching experience or social work experience, and years of it. I myself have been teaching in private schools for five years. So we’re not a bunch of inexperienced newbies with nothing to offer. Some of us have no experience and are very young, and quite a few are inching our way to middle age with three to 10 years of teaching experience. Moreover all experienced teachers aren’t amazing and all beginning teachers aren’t horrible. The truth is a little more nuanced than that. Sometimes experienced teachers suck. Sometimes new teachers are amazing. Most often, both new and old teachers are constantly growing and becoming better at what they do.

It sucks that there are experienced teachers out there who are not being hired. But it’s also too bad that young teachers thought they had a chance to be hired and weren’t. Neither new nor old teachers are expendable. A strong academic institution will have a combination of more- and less-experienced teachers so that innovation and stability are both part of the educational program.

Here is whats happening: There is a hiring freeze that won’t allow educators who were not already appointed 2008-2009, to be hired right now. This is completely ridiculous because principals are only allowed to hire excess teachers who are already getting paid. A lot of these people are working as ATRs in schools….pretty much, doing NOTHING…..from what I saw during my long-term substituting position this year, they are doing exactly what I did….picking up classes left and right. They are, pretty much, getting paid just as much as an appointed teacher who has to mark tests and create lesson plans, but they don’t have to do either of these things. So why would these people actually looking for a full-time position? If they are getting paid just as much for sitting home and subbing around the school, why look for more work? So….I believe, a lot of these excessed teachers aren’t actually looking to be hired right now. So….us, who aren’t appointed, are not only screwed by the hiring freeze but also by these selfish excessed individuals. I mean, how many of them do you guys really think are going out looking for a job and stressing out by faxing hundreds of resumes when they can get paid for sitting home with their children or get paid by working as an ATR and completing their masters in the process?

To reiterate what some of you have already stated, teaching fellows do not receive any housing costs nor do we receive a FREE masters degree. Our MS is subsidized by the DOE. Applying to the TF program is a choice that every TF made so it’s a little disturbing that others would try to attack us for making a career choice. Also, if I made the sacrifice and spent many years going to school and getting multiple degrees, then I damn well deserve to be rewarded for it! It’s so very sad that other, supposedly stable adults can call us names without even knowing who we are. The last time I checked, job hunting is a competition and the best candidate will win. I make no apologies for the fact that myself and all my science fellow colleagues are extremely well-educated and will provide stiff competition to others. It is disgusting that we have to be hired into a system that does not respect us as well-educated, talented teachers. I really wish the DOE and the Teaching Fellows program had not done this because I am sure that everyone involved knew that this hiring freeze was eminent.

And I want to wish everyone in this system, looking for a job, the best of luck to you all! If anyone is getting perks from their program, all the better because at least they have less to worry about. Lets hope we all get jobs at the end of this mess.

Why are people arguing??? We ALL got screwed. I worked in the system for 2 years, in which I was to get appointed next sept. & now the hiring freeze, ended it all for me. YET… Bloomberg is promising a 8% pay increase for teachers??? How is it that programs are getting cut, teachers losing jobs, but yet the mayor is talking raises??? And where is the UFT helping people like us. WhenI first came to the school, they asked for my $$$ in dues and cope, yet whenever I needed help I was told I am not appointed and the rules don’t apply to me. BUT they like to take my $$ with no problem. I think the problem is bigger than arguing among fellow, long term subs, and appointees. The problem is with the system!!!! And I am sick of it. Worked way too hard just to get slapped in the face with no job. It should be open marhet for all & may the best teacher get the job, not because you are an ATR!

How did Elizabeth above ever get $100,000 into debt for an *education* degree? Where did she think she was going to work? Goldman Sachs’s teaching division? I met some Columbia students like this while I was studying my subsidized master’s at City College and I always wondered what the hell they were thinking, since they weren’t all daddy’s little girls and boys.

The generalized perception of what it is to be a first year teacher through Teach For America or NY Teaching Fellows is very inaccurate. Unless you yourself have gone through either experience, you shouldn’t pit us into a category that should stand subverbient to a tenured teacher, just because you have been doing it longer, and/or because you are indeed bitter and need a scapegoat. Both programs teach highly qualified individuals all those necessary skills to make academic gains in the classroom, by both, pursuing relentlessly, and/or bringing their own experiences into the equation.

Being a Teach For America corps member myself, my intention in joining was never to put someone else out of a job, and if that were the case I would have continued in corporate America. Rather, my overall goal was to make a difference in the lives of these children. I come from an underperforming school system myself, and as such, have been a victim of the achievement gap. Now as an adult, I want to give back to my community, hoping that the kids in those classrooms are taught by only the best. Whether you are in the excess pool, NY Teaching Fellows, Teach For America, or come from a traditional circumstance, you are in the same struggle.

I am proud to be a first year teacher, and although I may not have the experience or tenure, I am relieved to know that everyone starts off in square one.

Actually, no, the founder, Wendy Kopp, founded the organization on the basis that corps members will make change within their two years, but make an even bigger impact when they are out in the world in their field of choice. These corps members use those experiences in the classroom and continue on as a part of the movement even beyond the two years. Corp members have held numerous great leadership positions in the field of education, and have gone on to become: superintendents, principals, and founders of charter school systems throughout the country. Not to mention the hundreds after hundreds of corps members that remain in the classroom even after five years.

Without the organization, or any alternative organization for that matter, you would be missing a strong link to the chain. I am not claiming that TFA is the only way to go, but the program is more than most of you will ever know. So I suggest that before you make inaccurate observations, you all get your facts straight.

As a 7th year teacher I have seen numerous Fellows and TFA’ers quit the job without even finishing off the year or in some cases the week. There have been a handful in my own school that have stayed and been successful (maybe 3) but that number pales in comparison to those that were just not sufficiently trained and left They quit despite receiving encouragement and support from teachers like myself and others in the building. I think it is mostly for this reason that so many traditionally educated teachers feel the way they do about these programs.

I have been teaching since 1979. I came in under the NTE license, was appointed as a full-time teacher and got my tenure. I left teaching to raise a family and came back part-time as an F Status teacher and taught for 6 more years. 3 years ago, I decided to come back full-time, found a job and was told by the state that they no longer “grandfathered in” teachers with the NTE and I would have to get certain requirements I was missing for my State Certification. The state would accept none of my prior, satisfactory teaching experience, so I took the tests and courses that I needed. In the meantime, my new principal had me work as a full-time teacher on the per diem payroll, waiting for me to complete my certification so she could put me on the full-time payroll. I got the certificate in October 2008, the budget was cut in November and I was told there was no money to hire me. I worked out the year, hoping that money would be found for the 2009-2010 year. However, no money was found, and I was laid off in June. The kicker is, I am being considered a “new hire” because she never appointed me, and despite all my previous full-time experience, I can’t get into the ATR pool either. I am stopped from getting a job at every angle. I am a single mother and am in foreclosure because I have been working at Per Diem salary until I was able to get my certificate and my “promised” position. This system stinks like a rotten egg. And all they talk about is how everything is done for the children…

to the aggrieved non appointed teachers..I’m sorry the city lied to you truly I am.. But the simple truth here is that there are no jobs for you. You have all been lied into believing there are positions open because the city treats its already hired teachers “that’s what an ATR is” like crap. If you worked for a company and they needed you in dept B and not in your current dept A then you would simply be transferred there. Well really that’s what we have here in NYC. Openings in different building an non in others. So the already hired teachers that work for the DOE and “not the school they are assigned to”should be moved around to fill the openings that exist like the labor resource that they are. From a fiscal stand point if you already have enough labor to fill your openings why would you hire more? Now I know you guys will say well best man for the job yadda yadda because the city has also lied to you by portraying these people as a bunch of lazy unhireable louts. Not the case.. they are satisfactory rated teachers usually between 2- 5 yrs experience or sometimes more that make more money then a start up teacher and that becomes they’re real road block to a job. Now i saw someone point out that teachers get paid full salary for subbing so why look for a job. Well all i can say to that is that if you were treated like crap and this was your only loophole to make them eat a little crow I think you would too.

Sorry insiderknowledge, but I think you’re a bit off the mark. Actually, I think a lot of this discussion is off the mark. It’s easy to throw generalizations around and trite missives (traditional teachers wanted to teach and are therefore more dedicated and passionate, fellows only want a graduate degree and leave, and implied assertion above that traditional teachers aren’t in it for the money).

From my perspective, be it an ATR, a fellow or an NYU graduate student, a lot of talented people are in a very bad spot right now. I don’t think that anyone anticipated such large budget problems or so many people sent into the ranks of the ATRs. Policy changes coupled with economic factors… well, it screwed the pooch for many. Blame Klein, blame the UFT, blame the alt cert programs, blame the charters, blame the feds, blame the state and the CFE administrators – blame them all. There’s a very new and stark reality at present, and the system is never going to resemble what it looked like 10 or even 5 years ago.

I certainly don’t know what the answer is, because every answer will come down to some group losing out. Will it be the teachers? Of course. But which ones? Policy studies contradict one another reagrding teacher performance and seniority, and principals want to maintain their autonomy regarding hiring. Guess we’ll know soon enough when the UFT concludes contract talks, or when the federal education dollars go buh-bye in two years. That infusion of funds is the only thing presently floating the USS DOE/UFT barge. And unless someone has a magic wand to send to Albany, no big funds are headed this way. 4% and 4%? Funny numbers for a city and state still in denial that they’re basically broke and will remain broke for who knows how long?

No need to look backwards. Even if they reverted back to the pre-2004 contract, it’s not going to work financially.

Anyhow, back to the big issues: fellows v. traditional teachers v. quasi-traditional teachers…