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	<title>Comments on: Guessing My Way to Promotion</title>
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		<title>By: Ars Docendi</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-352678</link>
		<dc:creator>Ars Docendi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 08:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-352678</guid>
		<description>[...] such as the “realignments” of SAT scoring or the setting of “proficiency” exams by which random guesswork can yield a promotion from one grade to the next. Even now, some testing retains a pre-Potemkin integrity. Hence the PISA test scores or the scores [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] such as the “realignments” of SAT scoring or the setting of “proficiency” exams by which random guesswork can yield a promotion from one grade to the next. Even now, some testing retains a pre-Potemkin integrity. Hence the PISA test scores or the scores [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A Problem of Fine Distinction &#171; Ars Docendi</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-285010</link>
		<dc:creator>A Problem of Fine Distinction &#171; Ars Docendi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Aug 2010 01:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-285010</guid>
		<description>[...] It is also possible that such places are loci of pedagogical or intellectual scandal, as in New York, some of whose “proficiency” tests for promotion could be passed by random guesswork. But let us assume competence, good will, and normal distribution of aptitude for the sake of this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] It is also possible that such places are loci of pedagogical or intellectual scandal, as in New York, some of whose “proficiency” tests for promotion could be passed by random guesswork. But let us assume competence, good will, and normal distribution of aptitude for the sake of this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Legislating Performance &#171; Arsdocendi.org</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-262878</link>
		<dc:creator>Legislating Performance &#171; Arsdocendi.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 05:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-262878</guid>
		<description>[...] To put this in perspective, you must try and imagine an interview by CNN of the principal of a school in California or Florida, in which the principal thanks his home state’s politicians for the trust they repose in him and his teachers. You must also imagine breakfast tables across California with school children eating while having a friendly give-and-take with Mom and Dad before heading off to school. And you must imagine young Californians and Floridians beaming over their scores on graduation tests that have not been cooked so that students can pass them with random answers, as can happen with tests for promotion in New York. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] To put this in perspective, you must try and imagine an interview by CNN of the principal of a school in California or Florida, in which the principal thanks his home state’s politicians for the trust they repose in him and his teachers. You must also imagine breakfast tables across California with school children eating while having a friendly give-and-take with Mom and Dad before heading off to school. And you must imagine young Californians and Floridians beaming over their scores on graduation tests that have not been cooked so that students can pass them with random answers, as can happen with tests for promotion in New York. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The absolute folly of bubble tests WIDELY exposed!! » Alan Lawrence Sitomer</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-259656</link>
		<dc:creator>The absolute folly of bubble tests WIDELY exposed!! » Alan Lawrence Sitomer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Mar 2010 14:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-259656</guid>
		<description>[...] read this. I have never seen the folly of the bubble tests exposed in a more lucid, &#8220;I can&#8217;t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] read this. I have never seen the folly of the bubble tests exposed in a more lucid, &#8220;I can&#8217;t [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-259595</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-259595</guid>
		<description>Ceolaf,

You are confusing a number of test design parameters. The order and structure of questions is not typically random for a number of reasons. The order of answers is almost always entirely random, even when such answers are themselves ordered (i.e. in ascending numerical order). You also are confusing the psychological aspects of test design (i.e. having easy answers) with the statistical aspects (i.e. random choices should be easily discernible from non-random). No matter whose test design principles the State supports, the test can be effective from a statistical standpoint.

There are indeed well-known techniques to neutralize guesses, but most of them do not revolve around attempting to minimize the score of any particular pattern, because there are too many patterns. For some reason, tests are generally designed to have a roughly equal number of correct answers assigned to each answer choice which does minimize the effect of &quot;all C&#039;s&quot;.

As for your point regarding the &quot;the cut score has been dropped too low&quot;, I agree. I would note that rather than blaming the mechanism, you must simply state the problem: &quot;students who guess every single answer stand a very high chance of being promoted, a small amount of effort on their part increases those chances to near-certainty&quot;. In Diana&#039;s post in the comments, I think we have much more well-supported evidence that this is true in several instances and I feel much more confident relying on that versus data from only two trials.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ceolaf,</p>
<p>You are confusing a number of test design parameters. The order and structure of questions is not typically random for a number of reasons. The order of answers is almost always entirely random, even when such answers are themselves ordered (i.e. in ascending numerical order). You also are confusing the psychological aspects of test design (i.e. having easy answers) with the statistical aspects (i.e. random choices should be easily discernible from non-random). No matter whose test design principles the State supports, the test can be effective from a statistical standpoint.</p>
<p>There are indeed well-known techniques to neutralize guesses, but most of them do not revolve around attempting to minimize the score of any particular pattern, because there are too many patterns. For some reason, tests are generally designed to have a roughly equal number of correct answers assigned to each answer choice which does minimize the effect of &#8220;all C&#8217;s&#8221;.</p>
<p>As for your point regarding the &#8220;the cut score has been dropped too low&#8221;, I agree. I would note that rather than blaming the mechanism, you must simply state the problem: &#8220;students who guess every single answer stand a very high chance of being promoted, a small amount of effort on their part increases those chances to near-certainty&#8221;. In Diana&#8217;s post in the comments, I think we have much more well-supported evidence that this is true in several instances and I feel much more confident relying on that versus data from only two trials.</p>
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		<title>By: ceolaf wolfhelm</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-259590</link>
		<dc:creator>ceolaf wolfhelm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-259590</guid>
		<description>Kenny,

I think that you fundamentally misunderstand the argument.

We can predict how many questions students will get right with random guessing. Sure, there is a variance to the actual result, but random guessing will generally result students get 1/n of the questions correct (where n is the number of answers to choose from). 

The issue here is NOT that the questions have been made too easy. The issue is that the cut score has been dropped too low. Imagine needing just 1/2n of the questions correct to pass. In that case, we would expect almost all the kids to pass, especially if they just guessed for each question. Well, in this case, the cut score is not nearly enough above 1/n - if one takes into account easy points on the written response section -- to make the entire test credible. Add in some easy question, (and there SHOULD be some easy questions, right? I mean, that would would be good test design.) and the test overall simply becomes too easy to pass.

Yes, Ms. Senechal&#039;s dramatic and true examples make for a great story while perhaps backgrounding the fundamental problem. But that doesn&#039;t mean that she is, at root, wrong.

There are well-known techniques for dealing with guessing. Yes, they make statistical analysis more difficult, and scoring slightly more difficult, but many are well established. I would argue that a practical late step to take in test design would be to make sure that the most common guessing patterns do not result in passing scores. 

Moreover, true random assignment of answer orders and questions orders is actually a bad idea, because it can results in bad outcomes. Randomization is a weak answer. We already know that if you have too many of the most difficult items early, you can depress scores on the test. So, if randomization is one of your strategies, you cannot stop there. Once you randomized, you&#039;ve GOT to check for known issues, and then re-randomize if former roll of the dice fell into any of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kenny,</p>
<p>I think that you fundamentally misunderstand the argument.</p>
<p>We can predict how many questions students will get right with random guessing. Sure, there is a variance to the actual result, but random guessing will generally result students get 1/n of the questions correct (where n is the number of answers to choose from). </p>
<p>The issue here is NOT that the questions have been made too easy. The issue is that the cut score has been dropped too low. Imagine needing just 1/2n of the questions correct to pass. In that case, we would expect almost all the kids to pass, especially if they just guessed for each question. Well, in this case, the cut score is not nearly enough above 1/n &#8211; if one takes into account easy points on the written response section &#8212; to make the entire test credible. Add in some easy question, (and there SHOULD be some easy questions, right? I mean, that would would be good test design.) and the test overall simply becomes too easy to pass.</p>
<p>Yes, Ms. Senechal&#8217;s dramatic and true examples make for a great story while perhaps backgrounding the fundamental problem. But that doesn&#8217;t mean that she is, at root, wrong.</p>
<p>There are well-known techniques for dealing with guessing. Yes, they make statistical analysis more difficult, and scoring slightly more difficult, but many are well established. I would argue that a practical late step to take in test design would be to make sure that the most common guessing patterns do not result in passing scores. </p>
<p>Moreover, true random assignment of answer orders and questions orders is actually a bad idea, because it can results in bad outcomes. Randomization is a weak answer. We already know that if you have too many of the most difficult items early, you can depress scores on the test. So, if randomization is one of your strategies, you cannot stop there. Once you randomized, you&#8217;ve GOT to check for known issues, and then re-randomize if former roll of the dice fell into any of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Diana Senechal</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-259384</link>
		<dc:creator>Diana Senechal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-259384</guid>
		<description>Kenny,

The experiment was informal, but in fact the odds of getting a 2 by guessing on these tests are quite high. I did some followup, and these were some of my findings.

For each test, I calculated the mean by dividing the total number of multiple-choice questions by 4 (since there are 4 options for each question). I calculated the standard deviation by taking the square root of (total number of questions x 0.25 x 0.75). I used a binomial distribution probability calculator from there. Consulting the score conversion tables (raw to scale and scale to performance level), I arrived at the following:

1. On the third-grade math test, there are 25 multiple-choice questions. A student need only answer 11 correctly to get a 2 (without doing anything whatsoever on the written portion of the test). There is approximately a 3 percent chance of doing this through random guessing.

2. On the fifth-grade ELA test, there are 24 multiple-choice questions. A student need only answer 8 correctly to get a 2 (without doing anything whatsoever on the written portion of the test). There is approximately a 23 percent chance of doing this through random guessing.

3. On the sixth-grade ELA test, there are 26 multiple-choice questions. A student need only answer 7 correctly to get a 2 (without doing anything whatsoever on the written portion of the test). There is approximately a 48 percent chance of doing this through random guessing.

4. On the seventh-grade ELA test, there are 30 multiple-choice questions. A student need only answer 9 correctly to get a 2 (without doing anything whatsoever on the written portion of the test). There is approximately a 33 percent chance of doing this through random guessing.

5. On the seventh-grade math test, there are 30 multiple-choice questions. A student need only answer 11 of them correctly to get a 2 (without doing anything whatsoever on the written portion of the test). There is approximately a 20 percent chance of doing this through random guessing.

Now, this assumes that the student only guesses on the multiple-choice questions and does nothing on the written parts. But what if the student knows a few of the answers—or earns a few points on the written section? Here are some scenarios.

1. Let’s take the third-grade math test. Let’s say that in addition to guessing on the multiple-choice part, the student earns two points on the written portions. His or her chances of getting a 2 go up to about 15 percent. 

2. On the fifth-grade ELA test, if the student earns two points on the written portions of the test and guesses the rest, his or her chances of getting a 2 go up to about 58 percent.

3. On the sixth-grade ELA test, if a student earns 2 points on the written portions and guesses the rest, his or her chances of getting a 2 go up to about 82 percent.

4. On the seventh-grade ELA test, if a student earns 2 points on the written portions and guesses the rest, his or her chances of getting a 2 go up to about 65 percent.

5. On the seventh-grade math test, if a student earns 2 points on the written portions and guesses the rest, his or her chances of getting a 2 go up to about 33 percent.

And now compare the odds with the numbers and proportions of students at level 1. Is it a coincidence that, in 2009, 0.1 percent (yes, one-tenth of one percent) of sixth-grade students in New York State scored at level 1 in ELA? In New York City, a total of 146 sixth graders scored at level 1 in ELA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kenny,</p>
<p>The experiment was informal, but in fact the odds of getting a 2 by guessing on these tests are quite high. I did some followup, and these were some of my findings.</p>
<p>For each test, I calculated the mean by dividing the total number of multiple-choice questions by 4 (since there are 4 options for each question). I calculated the standard deviation by taking the square root of (total number of questions x 0.25 x 0.75). I used a binomial distribution probability calculator from there. Consulting the score conversion tables (raw to scale and scale to performance level), I arrived at the following:</p>
<p>1. On the third-grade math test, there are 25 multiple-choice questions. A student need only answer 11 correctly to get a 2 (without doing anything whatsoever on the written portion of the test). There is approximately a 3 percent chance of doing this through random guessing.</p>
<p>2. On the fifth-grade ELA test, there are 24 multiple-choice questions. A student need only answer 8 correctly to get a 2 (without doing anything whatsoever on the written portion of the test). There is approximately a 23 percent chance of doing this through random guessing.</p>
<p>3. On the sixth-grade ELA test, there are 26 multiple-choice questions. A student need only answer 7 correctly to get a 2 (without doing anything whatsoever on the written portion of the test). There is approximately a 48 percent chance of doing this through random guessing.</p>
<p>4. On the seventh-grade ELA test, there are 30 multiple-choice questions. A student need only answer 9 correctly to get a 2 (without doing anything whatsoever on the written portion of the test). There is approximately a 33 percent chance of doing this through random guessing.</p>
<p>5. On the seventh-grade math test, there are 30 multiple-choice questions. A student need only answer 11 of them correctly to get a 2 (without doing anything whatsoever on the written portion of the test). There is approximately a 20 percent chance of doing this through random guessing.</p>
<p>Now, this assumes that the student only guesses on the multiple-choice questions and does nothing on the written parts. But what if the student knows a few of the answers—or earns a few points on the written section? Here are some scenarios.</p>
<p>1. Let’s take the third-grade math test. Let’s say that in addition to guessing on the multiple-choice part, the student earns two points on the written portions. His or her chances of getting a 2 go up to about 15 percent. </p>
<p>2. On the fifth-grade ELA test, if the student earns two points on the written portions of the test and guesses the rest, his or her chances of getting a 2 go up to about 58 percent.</p>
<p>3. On the sixth-grade ELA test, if a student earns 2 points on the written portions and guesses the rest, his or her chances of getting a 2 go up to about 82 percent.</p>
<p>4. On the seventh-grade ELA test, if a student earns 2 points on the written portions and guesses the rest, his or her chances of getting a 2 go up to about 65 percent.</p>
<p>5. On the seventh-grade math test, if a student earns 2 points on the written portions and guesses the rest, his or her chances of getting a 2 go up to about 33 percent.</p>
<p>And now compare the odds with the numbers and proportions of students at level 1. Is it a coincidence that, in 2009, 0.1 percent (yes, one-tenth of one percent) of sixth-grade students in New York State scored at level 1 in ELA? In New York City, a total of 146 sixth graders scored at level 1 in ELA.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-259383</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:18:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-259383</guid>
		<description>This analysis is completely flawed. You cannot say anything about the ability of a student to pass &quot;randomly&quot; by completing two tests. Simply put, both the answer choices and the order are randomly assigned. A randomly completed test will get 1/N * Q raw points where N is number of answer choices and Q is number of questions. For this that is a 25% grade on the multiple choice section. However there are N^Qth ways of completing the test, and for a significant number of them, the grade will be passing. Increasing N makes the test harder to pass, while increasing Q increases the number of chances to measure a students&#039; aptitude. 

On a well-designed test, more questions mean that the questions will range in difficulty, and thus increase the chances of differentiating each level of skill, but note that it will NOT increase change the random probability of passing the test. Specifically, a significant number of easy questions help lower the chances that a student has literally not read the test and is randomly choosing answers. 

All you have shown is that you have found two out of the N^Mth ways of completing this test that result in a pass. There are a number of ways to change these factors but absolutely no way in hell that you can control for a &quot;random answer&quot; strategy of passing, any more than you can control for a randomly chosen lottery number being a winning ticket. There will always be at least one, and in a good test, many more. Tests are evidence of a student&#039;s ability, not a final judgement.

Any of these issues would be covered in the most basic courses a teacher should take in statistics. Whether teachers are able to pass their statistics classes in university by adopting a random choice strategy without understanding statistics, I cannot say, but I believe that any of them would be sufficiently competent to understand the above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This analysis is completely flawed. You cannot say anything about the ability of a student to pass &#8220;randomly&#8221; by completing two tests. Simply put, both the answer choices and the order are randomly assigned. A randomly completed test will get 1/N * Q raw points where N is number of answer choices and Q is number of questions. For this that is a 25% grade on the multiple choice section. However there are N^Qth ways of completing the test, and for a significant number of them, the grade will be passing. Increasing N makes the test harder to pass, while increasing Q increases the number of chances to measure a students&#8217; aptitude. </p>
<p>On a well-designed test, more questions mean that the questions will range in difficulty, and thus increase the chances of differentiating each level of skill, but note that it will NOT increase change the random probability of passing the test. Specifically, a significant number of easy questions help lower the chances that a student has literally not read the test and is randomly choosing answers. </p>
<p>All you have shown is that you have found two out of the N^Mth ways of completing this test that result in a pass. There are a number of ways to change these factors but absolutely no way in hell that you can control for a &#8220;random answer&#8221; strategy of passing, any more than you can control for a randomly chosen lottery number being a winning ticket. There will always be at least one, and in a good test, many more. Tests are evidence of a student&#8217;s ability, not a final judgement.</p>
<p>Any of these issues would be covered in the most basic courses a teacher should take in statistics. Whether teachers are able to pass their statistics classes in university by adopting a random choice strategy without understanding statistics, I cannot say, but I believe that any of them would be sufficiently competent to understand the above.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Blogger Named to Common Standards Panel at The Core Knowledge Blog</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-236695</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Blogger Named to Common Standards Panel at The Core Knowledge Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-236695</guid>
		<description>[...] who until recently taught at a Core Knowledge school in New York City, made waves recently when she showed that it was possible to pass New York State ELA and Math tests by simply [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] who until recently taught at a Core Knowledge school in New York City, made waves recently when she showed that it was possible to pass New York State ELA and Math tests by simply [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Moving the Chains at The Core Knowledge Blog</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-199897</link>
		<dc:creator>Moving the Chains at The Core Knowledge Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-199897</guid>
		<description>[...] Diana Senechal recently described an experiment in which she was able to “pass” several standardized tests just by guessing and without even [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Diana Senechal recently described an experiment in which she was able to “pass” several standardized tests just by guessing and without even [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Brown: Grading the Big Tests: A Study in Madness&#8230; and a Really Good New Book &#124; The Latest Liberal Blogs</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-198911</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Brown: Grading the Big Tests: A Study in Madness&#8230; and a Really Good New Book &#124; The Latest Liberal Blogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-198911</guid>
		<description>[...] corporations have vested interests in getting favorable stats. Last month, Diana Senechal at gothamschools.org proved it was possible to guess randomly on New York State exams and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] corporations have vested interests in getting favorable stats. Last month, Diana Senechal at gothamschools.org proved it was possible to guess randomly on New York State exams and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nuisance</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-195350</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuisance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 15:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-195350</guid>
		<description>At least in North America jobs that require meaningful levels of education have been in decline
for decades.  Even in the financial industry very little is required, as we have all learned
recently.  So, I really don&#039;t see what the problem is. All we need is a system that warehouses
the youth for time so that unemployment doesn&#039;t spike to levels high enough to result in
violent revolution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least in North America jobs that require meaningful levels of education have been in decline<br />
for decades.  Even in the financial industry very little is required, as we have all learned<br />
recently.  So, I really don&#8217;t see what the problem is. All we need is a system that warehouses<br />
the youth for time so that unemployment doesn&#8217;t spike to levels high enough to result in<br />
violent revolution.</p>
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		<title>By: When social promotion essentially becomes necessary to run the schools&#8230;.. &#171; Transparent Christina</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-180157</link>
		<dc:creator>When social promotion essentially becomes necessary to run the schools&#8230;.. &#171; Transparent Christina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 01:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-180157</guid>
		<description>[...] Posted by John Young on August 26, 2009  bad things can happen&#8230;.what a mess this must be. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Posted by John Young on August 26, 2009  bad things can happen&#8230;.what a mess this must be. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Marty</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-174826</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 20:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-174826</guid>
		<description>This post helps me understand why I, a social studies teacher, found ARIS not to be of much help after my principal made a big deal of requiring us to log on and check our students&#039; scores (in my case I was checking the 8th grade scores of my 9th graders).  Quite frankly, I can assess the kids better myself despite having 34 in each class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post helps me understand why I, a social studies teacher, found ARIS not to be of much help after my principal made a big deal of requiring us to log on and check our students&#8217; scores (in my case I was checking the 8th grade scores of my 9th graders).  Quite frankly, I can assess the kids better myself despite having 34 in each class.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael M.</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-173536</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 03:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-173536</guid>
		<description>Dee,

Thank you for your comments and your perspective.

My younger brother, now in his 40&#039;s, has CP and significant physical handicaps, the term back then.  If it were up to standardized testing (without accomodations), he&#039;d never have made it to grad school.  People, especially those facing severe challenges, are themselves not standardized.

I have seen the disaggregated data for ELA and Math for D2 elementary and middle school students.  The scores for Special Ed kids are lower than those of many other sub-groups.  Between the implication of the scores, and quite possibly the testing structure, we&#039;re doing children with disabilities a disservice twice over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dee,</p>
<p>Thank you for your comments and your perspective.</p>
<p>My younger brother, now in his 40&#8242;s, has CP and significant physical handicaps, the term back then.  If it were up to standardized testing (without accomodations), he&#8217;d never have made it to grad school.  People, especially those facing severe challenges, are themselves not standardized.</p>
<p>I have seen the disaggregated data for ELA and Math for D2 elementary and middle school students.  The scores for Special Ed kids are lower than those of many other sub-groups.  Between the implication of the scores, and quite possibly the testing structure, we&#8217;re doing children with disabilities a disservice twice over.</p>
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		<title>By: Dee Alpert</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-173531</link>
		<dc:creator>Dee Alpert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 03:05:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-173531</guid>
		<description>You write that &quot;High quality testing does have educational value, and weaknesses in our assessment programs have at *at least* an opportunity cost for students and educators.&quot;

How true.  But I&#039;ve looked - hard - since NCLB&#039;s inception and so far, I&#039;ve failed to find one state which has a system of what you&#039;d call &quot;high quality testing.&quot;  I&#039;m certainly not implying that this can&#039;t be done - I&#039;m simply noting that our current American education industry and infrastructure are either unwilling or unable to produce one and then let the education industry in the states live with the results of those high quality tests.  And as with most things in the education industry, NY is both the most expensive and the most corrupted.

So given the hand that we&#039;ve been dealt, for me the issue is whether any of the data purportedly euchered out of the testing system is valid and reliable for any purpose whatsoever.  

Unfortunately, I think not.

Now, for the other side ... I always have fun telling folks about the USDOE-sponsored, longitudinal, national, large-scale research done re kids with disabilities at the elementary and secondary levels.  These show, without exception, that there is &quot;almost zero&quot; correlation between the subjective grades teachers give kids with disabilities and those kids&#039; objectively-assessed reading and math levels.  I&#039;m talking about diagnostic testing for real reading and math levels, not the NCLB-mandated tests.

So for the 15% of kids who are classified as having some disability or another, if we don&#039;t have a legitimate testing system and we don&#039;t have legitimately reported results ... we wind up with what we have now:  massive numbers of kids with mild disabilities who&#039;ve been graduated from high school with allegedly &quot;regular&quot; high school diplomas and who can&#039;t read or do math at anything close to the high school level.  I suspect that these are many of the NYCDOE&#039;s kids who have been given the benefit of bogus &quot;credit recovery&quot; in order to get their diplomas.

For me, these are the kids who are the real victims of the ridiculous tests NYS provides and the even more ridiculous scores our State and NYC spinmeisters have massaged so well.

Dee Alpert, Publisher
SpecialEducationMuckraker.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You write that &#8220;High quality testing does have educational value, and weaknesses in our assessment programs have at *at least* an opportunity cost for students and educators.&#8221;</p>
<p>How true.  But I&#8217;ve looked &#8211; hard &#8211; since NCLB&#8217;s inception and so far, I&#8217;ve failed to find one state which has a system of what you&#8217;d call &#8220;high quality testing.&#8221;  I&#8217;m certainly not implying that this can&#8217;t be done &#8211; I&#8217;m simply noting that our current American education industry and infrastructure are either unwilling or unable to produce one and then let the education industry in the states live with the results of those high quality tests.  And as with most things in the education industry, NY is both the most expensive and the most corrupted.</p>
<p>So given the hand that we&#8217;ve been dealt, for me the issue is whether any of the data purportedly euchered out of the testing system is valid and reliable for any purpose whatsoever.  </p>
<p>Unfortunately, I think not.</p>
<p>Now, for the other side &#8230; I always have fun telling folks about the USDOE-sponsored, longitudinal, national, large-scale research done re kids with disabilities at the elementary and secondary levels.  These show, without exception, that there is &#8220;almost zero&#8221; correlation between the subjective grades teachers give kids with disabilities and those kids&#8217; objectively-assessed reading and math levels.  I&#8217;m talking about diagnostic testing for real reading and math levels, not the NCLB-mandated tests.</p>
<p>So for the 15% of kids who are classified as having some disability or another, if we don&#8217;t have a legitimate testing system and we don&#8217;t have legitimately reported results &#8230; we wind up with what we have now:  massive numbers of kids with mild disabilities who&#8217;ve been graduated from high school with allegedly &#8220;regular&#8221; high school diplomas and who can&#8217;t read or do math at anything close to the high school level.  I suspect that these are many of the NYCDOE&#8217;s kids who have been given the benefit of bogus &#8220;credit recovery&#8221; in order to get their diplomas.</p>
<p>For me, these are the kids who are the real victims of the ridiculous tests NYS provides and the even more ridiculous scores our State and NYC spinmeisters have massaged so well.</p>
<p>Dee Alpert, Publisher<br />
SpecialEducationMuckraker.com</p>
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		<title>By: ceolaf</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-173507</link>
		<dc:creator>ceolaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 02:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-173507</guid>
		<description>Ms. Alpert,

I agree with most of what you have written, until the end. While Bloomberg has given this even more political significance than it usually has, its significance is *not* limited to politics.

There *are* political implications, and these things do impact the education of children and educational reform -- even apart from the political avenue. This testing regime goes back further than Mayor Mike&#039;s tenure as mayor. High quality testing does have educational value, and weaknesses in our assessment programs have at *at least* an opportunity cost for students and educators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ms. Alpert,</p>
<p>I agree with most of what you have written, until the end. While Bloomberg has given this even more political significance than it usually has, its significance is *not* limited to politics.</p>
<p>There *are* political implications, and these things do impact the education of children and educational reform &#8212; even apart from the political avenue. This testing regime goes back further than Mayor Mike&#8217;s tenure as mayor. High quality testing does have educational value, and weaknesses in our assessment programs have at *at least* an opportunity cost for students and educators.</p>
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		<title>By: Guess pass at Joanne Jacobs</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-173490</link>
		<dc:creator>Guess pass at Joanne Jacobs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-173490</guid>
		<description>[...] New York students can score in Level 2 &#8212; good enough for promotion to the next grade &#8212; by guessing on the end-of-year exam, claims Diane Ravitch.   [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] New York students can score in Level 2 &#8212; good enough for promotion to the next grade &#8212; by guessing on the end-of-year exam, claims Diane Ravitch.   [...]</p>
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		<title>By: john thompson</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-173386</link>
		<dc:creator>john thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-173386</guid>
		<description>MM,

That&#039;s why I have no idea what I think about social promotion in general.  But rarely do we face these issues in an abstract setting.  

Decisions regarding social promotion, remediations, interventions, enhancements, credit recovery or whatever need to be discussed honestly given the messy realities of what situation is being addressed.  
But santimonious fig leafs, that are the forte of Bloom/Klein are destructive.  I don&#039;t think we disagree,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MM,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I have no idea what I think about social promotion in general.  But rarely do we face these issues in an abstract setting.  </p>
<p>Decisions regarding social promotion, remediations, interventions, enhancements, credit recovery or whatever need to be discussed honestly given the messy realities of what situation is being addressed.<br />
But santimonious fig leafs, that are the forte of Bloom/Klein are destructive.  I don&#8217;t think we disagree,</p>
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		<title>By: Michael M.</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/08/17/guessing-my-way-to-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-173311</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=21039#comment-173311</guid>
		<description>ceolaf,
You&#039;re wearing me out.
Does the way these tests are scored score blanks and wrong answers differently, regardless of number?
The last word is yours...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ceolaf,<br />
You&#8217;re wearing me out.<br />
Does the way these tests are scored score blanks and wrong answers differently, regardless of number?<br />
The last word is yours&#8230;</p>
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