GothamSchools — daily independent reporting on NYC public schools

diplomat in chief

Arne Duncan avoids taking a side in the KIPP vs. AFT debate

Secretary of Education Arne Duncan weighed in yesterday on the debate over whether the KIPP charter school in Brooklyn, KIPP AMP, should unionize, as the teachers have moved to do — without taking either side of the argument. (KIPP officials appear to be resisting the unionization effort.) Instead, Duncan told NPR’s Tom Ashbrook that the decision might not matter.

Here’s Duncan’s full answer (emphasis mine):

Well, let me just say, in Chicago, and I’m sure this is true nationally, we had great union schools and we had poor union schools, and we had great non-union schools and we had poor non-union schools. And so, that’s a piece of the puzzle, but it’s much more complex than that.

Does a third-grader know whether they’re going to a union school or a non-union school? They don’t know that. And frankly, they don’t care. All they care about is, are they being challenged. What I want to do, Tom, I want to be very, very clear: I want to take to scale what is working and I want to eliminate what is not working. There are great examples of success in those two camps and there are examples of failure.

Duncan also demonstrated even-handedness in talking about the current contract debate between Michelle Rhee, the D.C. schools chancellor, and the teachers union there, which, like New York City’s union, is part of the national American Federation of Teachers. “I have a lot of confidence in the chancellor, Michelle Rhee, and Randi Weingarten, the president of the AFT, doing the right thing by children,” Duncan said.

The equal time for Rhee and Weingarten comes after Obama heaped praise on Rhee alone during the campaign. It also offers evidence for exactly how Duncan plans to approach debates inside the Democratic Party on education. The model here is to cite pragmatism above ideology: He doesn’t voice any faith in the labor movement as a cause, or, alternatively, voice disapproval of it. He simply says he wants to support “what works.”

You can listen to Duncan’s full interview, which included the fun fact that Duncan’s family did not have a television set when he was growing up, here.

  • ceolaf

    Elizabeth,

    Ummmm…I think that he just took sides.

    One side is saying that unions are bad for education, bad for schools, and the ruin everything they touch.

    The other side is saying that unions are not bad for education, not bad for schools and don’t ruin everything they touch.

    One side is saying that there are educational reasons to be against teacher unionization, and the other says there are are not.

  • Elizabeth Green

    Ceolaf,
    True, he did not side with the anti-union camp, which I guess is a side in itself. But I feel like you’re only portraying two points on a spectrum that has three. Is there not another side saying that unions are GOOD for schools, that there are educational reasons to be FOR teachers unions? That’s what the KIPP AMP teachers say. And I think that many if not all union officials would agree with that. But Arne Duncan in this case chose not to agree with them.

  • ceolaf

    Elizabeth,

    There are union activists who claim that even in the absence of abuses that a wonderful organization will STILL benefit from unions. (I am related to such a person.)

    However, I’ve never seen that specifically in the educational world or debate. The case for unions in school is different than that. The case for unions comes in response to existing conditions and history.

    The folks at KIPP AMP are saying that because teachers have been shut out of decision-making, because the administration is not paying proper attention to the needs of the faculty (those are their two issues, right?), the school is suffering. And, they continue, the way to get teachers’ voices heard at these issues addressed is to unionize.

    The more general case for teachers unions is built around just and handful of ideas, not all of which are educational.

    * There is an ample history of administrators showing favoritism to some teachers over others in a variety of way that are not good for schools. Union contracts limit the inappropriate favoritism. (e.g. nepotism, giving friends the best classrooms or teaching assignments, etc.) This might or might not be an educational reason.

    * The oldest reason is that people historically lost of lot of rights when they became teachers. They were treated like public figures who conduct and morals were subject to public debate and potentially discipline up to and including firing. Women who dated were fired. Go to a bar and have a drink and your pay is cut. After all, if you are educating our children, shouldn’t you only have the highest moral character? Well, the idea of unions and the establishment of due process procedures for discipline and firing was to protect teachers — as with the first reason of distrust of administrators — from the public’s inappropriate and irrelevant standards.

    Again, not exactly an educational reason.

    * There IS an educational idea, however. Teachers, in theory, have knowledge of what is going on the ground, and are real experts in their work. It is crazy to leave the voice of most of the experts in the organization out of decision-making. You’re not going to have every decision subject to vote by all the employees, but have a representative of the workers at the table with management when major decisions are made seems — to many — to be a good idea.

    * There is also a political idea, and this is the most controversial one. There are lots of people with power. The superintendent has power, and has the ear of other people who have power. Klein can get on his bully pulpit any time. He can get his views heard on any radio or TV station, or any print outlet, any time he wants. The rich and powerful can always get their views heard. But the little man doesn’t have that kind of voice. Even with the web, getting anyone to hear your view can be difficult. Therefore, unions exist to give the great number of little guys’/gals’ view heard in the big debates. Like, we know what Klein thinks about mayoral control, but what do teachers think? The union is supposed to fill that role. And if the owners or senior administrators of organization can endorse political candidates, why can’t workers? — even if the organization is a public one.

    Is that an educational reason? Indirectly, yes. But you don’t need collective bargaining rights for that last one. You can have professional associations that are not like what people think of as teacher unions for that.

    ************************

    So, I don’t think that people really argue that teachers unions make schools better. I think, instead, the closest argument to that is that teachers unions prevent others (especially administrators) from making them worse. But the bigger argument is that just because a person decides to become a teacher, that doesn’t mean that they should be an indentured servant. This bigger argument is more about worker rights, the right to be treated decently (however that is defined).

    If you believe that a happy workforce is a more productive workforce than that might be an educational argument. But I think that that is a little weak. Not totally wrong, but a little weak.

    *****************************

    Now, I do think that there are certain arguments that can be made. For example, I think that the superintendent and the union president can privately agree that certain unpopular/controversial things have got to be done. And then, they can each go in public and blame the other for half of them. “I didn’t want to go along with X, but if we were going to do Y, I had to do it,” and the converse from the other side. They can conveniently blame the other for the part that their constituency wouldn’t normally go for. This way, entrenched interests have a bit less power to stop change.

    Now, that takes a really good partnership between the two, one built on respect and mutual understanding. And that is not very common.

    So, the pro-union argument is really that unions are not automatically good for schools. The argument is that they are good for teachers without being bad for schools and students. And then, indirectly, the argument is something like, “if it is good for teachers, the men and women who know, love and nurture your children every day, isn’t that good for you children, too?”

    I’m one of those pro-union people. I don’t think that most people — including senior administrators — understand how physically demanding and emotionally draining great teaching is, to say nothing of how time consuming its daily preparation is. And I suppose that the argument could be made that by fighting to ensure that teachers are treated decently (which is a standard obviously subject to debate), unions help to keep good teachers in the classroom and even to attract potentially good teacher, too. So, there’s your educational argument. But it’s indirect and a little tenuous.

  • ceolaf

    Elizabeth,

    I’m going to put it another way, and this is probably a bad idea. But I’m going to do it anyway.

    The pro-choice crowd is not actually pro-abortion. They do not argue that every pregnancy should be aborted. Rather, most of them say that abortions are sometimes the best answer, because of particular circumstances. (Obviously, there are some pro-choice people who think that abortion should be legal, but that there is always a better answer. And there are some who don’t want to look at circumstances themselves. But none of them are calling for abortion of every pregnancy.)

    The unionization argument is much the same. One side is saying, “No, never.” And they have managed to paint the other side as saying, “Yes, always.” But the other side is actually, “Sometimes.”

    In this case, we have a particular school in which the teachers want to unionize. One side is saying, “No, never.” And the other side is saying, “Well, in this case, yes.”

    In some countries, unions are mandatory. But that’s quite the fringe position in this country, and I’ve never seen or heard it applied to schools.

  • GGW

    I wonder if Arne Duncan’s “Kipp conversion” experience in Chicago has affected his views on this matter.

    If you recall, there was an attempt to try a district conversion to Kipp in a unionized school.

    While no doubt all parties disagree on the cause, I think everyone agrees that the effort failed, the school was crappy. Kipp withdrew its name and support, perhaps in 2007 or so.

Tips, questions, feedback?

Contact us at .

Follow GothamSchools

RSS

Feb. 10: You’re invited!

Chalk It Up

Recent Comments

46 comments so far today

Our Twitter Updates

  • Frank Thomas, DOE spokesman just told me no arrests have been made tonight at PEP despite confrontation between protesters & police earlier. 31 mins ago
  • RT @leoniehaimson: It's been shown repeatedly that as one schl closes another overwhelmed w/ high needs kids that small schls won't take 36 mins ago
  • Shael: the suggestion that kids are moved around (to large, struggling high schools) just isn't accurate. 38 mins ago
  • @SchoolBook: Manhattan rep @PSulliv and mayoral appointee Lisette Nieves get into an argument she tells him to get off his "soapbox” 40 mins ago
  • Mayoral appointee Lisette nieves chimes in on an increasingly irate @PSulliv she says he's being rude. 41 mins ago
  • More updates...

Archives

February 2012
M T W T F S S
« Jan  
 12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
272829  
?>