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	<title>Comments on: A Study Only an Economist Could Love</title>
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	<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/02/27/a-study-only-an-economist-could-love/</link>
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		<title>By: Kerrie Vacanti</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/02/27/a-study-only-an-economist-could-love/comment-page-1/#comment-257174</link>
		<dc:creator>Kerrie Vacanti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=10458#comment-257174</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m also a fan]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m also a fan</p>
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		<title>By: Kurtis Abramian</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/02/27/a-study-only-an-economist-could-love/comment-page-1/#comment-257037</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurtis Abramian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=10458#comment-257037</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[warf...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>warf&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/02/27/a-study-only-an-economist-could-love/comment-page-1/#comment-52621</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=10458#comment-52621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think an honest researcher should or would accept working on this or a similar study, no matter where the funding was from. It is not reasonable to assume that the effect being looked for would be measurable above the noise, even if the sample were larger.

All a study like this can do, since it cannot be completed on a scientific level, is hand people like Mr. Hirsch something to point to, as evidence for what they have already decided. Despite, of course, the study showing nothing.

Yes, the conflict of interest is immediately obvious. But the only good research I have seen recently in education has been Eduwonkette&#039;s anti-research, showing the world that the data the DoE (and others) pump out is full of holes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think an honest researcher should or would accept working on this or a similar study, no matter where the funding was from. It is not reasonable to assume that the effect being looked for would be measurable above the noise, even if the sample were larger.</p>
<p>All a study like this can do, since it cannot be completed on a scientific level, is hand people like Mr. Hirsch something to point to, as evidence for what they have already decided. Despite, of course, the study showing nothing.</p>
<p>Yes, the conflict of interest is immediately obvious. But the only good research I have seen recently in education has been Eduwonkette&#8217;s anti-research, showing the world that the data the DoE (and others) pump out is full of holes.</p>
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		<title>By: elaine silverberg</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/02/27/a-study-only-an-economist-could-love/comment-page-1/#comment-52283</link>
		<dc:creator>elaine silverberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 11:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=10458#comment-52283</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RESPONSE:
I would like to focus on the point that &quot;if you are a principal wondering whether your next hire should be a traditionally-certified or alternatively-certified teacher...keep looking.&quot; Principals in urban school systems have no choice - which is why we have alternative routes.  The very persistence of alternative routes is due to &quot;early attrition.&quot; But that leaves out the question WHY? Why are urban schools a revolving door for both teachers and principals? Studies by Susanna Loeb et al. (Teacher Policy Research) list many reasons for teacher attrition but they too skirt around the issue by writing that teachers leave disadvantaged schools to teach higher achieving students. I would argue that it is less about level of achievement and more about the social capital in the classroom that allows one to teach. John Merrow&#039;s PBS series on education, (the News Hour program), has highlighted (very boldly) the many problems that face urban schools, which includes the story of a principal attempting to turn around a school. Schools reflect their social environment which in turn constrains the potential and options of policy and individuals who truly want to make a difference.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RESPONSE:<br />
I would like to focus on the point that &#8220;if you are a principal wondering whether your next hire should be a traditionally-certified or alternatively-certified teacher&#8230;keep looking.&#8221; Principals in urban school systems have no choice &#8211; which is why we have alternative routes.  The very persistence of alternative routes is due to &#8220;early attrition.&#8221; But that leaves out the question WHY? Why are urban schools a revolving door for both teachers and principals? Studies by Susanna Loeb et al. (Teacher Policy Research) list many reasons for teacher attrition but they too skirt around the issue by writing that teachers leave disadvantaged schools to teach higher achieving students. I would argue that it is less about level of achievement and more about the social capital in the classroom that allows one to teach. John Merrow&#8217;s PBS series on education, (the News Hour program), has highlighted (very boldly) the many problems that face urban schools, which includes the story of a principal attempting to turn around a school. Schools reflect their social environment which in turn constrains the potential and options of policy and individuals who truly want to make a difference.</p>
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		<title>By: skoolboy</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/02/27/a-study-only-an-economist-could-love/comment-page-1/#comment-50879</link>
		<dc:creator>skoolboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 04:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=10458#comment-50879</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ken:  Policymakers, principals and other people rely on all sorts of things to inform their decisions, and research is just one of them.  I haven&#039;t been able to think of a circumstance in which I think it would be appropriate to rely heavily on this study to make an important decision, but I suppose I can&#039;t rule out the possibility.

I don&#039;t think that ed schools preparing teachers have, as a group, been very successful in making the case either that they transform the knowledge, skills and dispositions of prospective teachers, or that these qualities increase the likelihood that children and youth will learn what society expects.  The lack of compelling evidence makes ed schools vulnerable to criticism.  But I&#039;m not sure that the existing literature is all that relevant to key policy issues regarding teacher supply and demand.  Alternative certification is here to stay.

eduwonkette:  I haven&#039;t figured out how I feel about the effect size argument made by the Pathways group.  Sure, if you adjust for random measurement error, you&#039;ll see bigger effects--there&#039;s nothing exotic about that.  But there&#039;s a difference between modeling and predicting outcomes, and it seems to me that the predicted and observed outcomes will still reflect the dampening effects of measurement error. 

Jonathan:  There&#039;s more than enough blame to go around on the Mathematica study, but one thing I&#039;d point out is that the report was prepared under a contract from the Institute of Education Sciences.  This means that Mathematica was contractually obligated to deliver a report to IES, which could then release the report at its discretion.  In my view, the main problems with this study were in its design more so than its execution, but it can be difficult to reconstruct how and why particular design decisions were made.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken:  Policymakers, principals and other people rely on all sorts of things to inform their decisions, and research is just one of them.  I haven&#8217;t been able to think of a circumstance in which I think it would be appropriate to rely heavily on this study to make an important decision, but I suppose I can&#8217;t rule out the possibility.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that ed schools preparing teachers have, as a group, been very successful in making the case either that they transform the knowledge, skills and dispositions of prospective teachers, or that these qualities increase the likelihood that children and youth will learn what society expects.  The lack of compelling evidence makes ed schools vulnerable to criticism.  But I&#8217;m not sure that the existing literature is all that relevant to key policy issues regarding teacher supply and demand.  Alternative certification is here to stay.</p>
<p>eduwonkette:  I haven&#8217;t figured out how I feel about the effect size argument made by the Pathways group.  Sure, if you adjust for random measurement error, you&#8217;ll see bigger effects&#8211;there&#8217;s nothing exotic about that.  But there&#8217;s a difference between modeling and predicting outcomes, and it seems to me that the predicted and observed outcomes will still reflect the dampening effects of measurement error. </p>
<p>Jonathan:  There&#8217;s more than enough blame to go around on the Mathematica study, but one thing I&#8217;d point out is that the report was prepared under a contract from the Institute of Education Sciences.  This means that Mathematica was contractually obligated to deliver a report to IES, which could then release the report at its discretion.  In my view, the main problems with this study were in its design more so than its execution, but it can be difficult to reconstruct how and why particular design decisions were made.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/02/27/a-study-only-an-economist-could-love/comment-page-1/#comment-50569</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=10458#comment-50569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The quality of research in education remains appalling. 

This study was too poorly designed to draw conclusions. 

With a sense of integrity, a researcher would have declined to publish. But they know that there are advocates out there who will treat the null conclusion as a conclusion, and run with it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The quality of research in education remains appalling. </p>
<p>This study was too poorly designed to draw conclusions. </p>
<p>With a sense of integrity, a researcher would have declined to publish. But they know that there are advocates out there who will treat the null conclusion as a conclusion, and run with it.</p>
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		<title>By: eduwonkette</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/02/27/a-study-only-an-economist-could-love/comment-page-1/#comment-50480</link>
		<dc:creator>eduwonkette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=10458#comment-50480</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ken, 

Many scholars are now reexamining certification and coursework studies in light of two considerations: 1) that the issue of measurement error has confounded estimates of the effects of teacher observable characteristics on student outcomes, and 2) that the selection of teacher candidates into different kinds of training and education experiences makes identifying the effects of these factors difficult. 

Here is the critical part of an abstract from a study that is addressing issue 1: 

When teacher attributes [i.e. certification, college attended, SAT scores, experience] are considered jointly, based on the teacher attribute combinations commonly observed, the overall effect of teacher attributes is roughly half a standard deviation of universe score gains – even larger when teaching experience is also allowed to vary. The bottom line is that there are important differences in teacher effectiveness that are systematically related to observed teacher attributes. Such effects are important from a policy perspective, and should be taken into account in the formulation and implementation of personnel policies.

http://www.wcer.wisc.edu/news/events/VAM%20Conference%20Final%20Papers/MeasuringEffectSizes_BoydEtAl.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, </p>
<p>Many scholars are now reexamining certification and coursework studies in light of two considerations: 1) that the issue of measurement error has confounded estimates of the effects of teacher observable characteristics on student outcomes, and 2) that the selection of teacher candidates into different kinds of training and education experiences makes identifying the effects of these factors difficult. </p>
<p>Here is the critical part of an abstract from a study that is addressing issue 1: </p>
<p>When teacher attributes [i.e. certification, college attended, SAT scores, experience] are considered jointly, based on the teacher attribute combinations commonly observed, the overall effect of teacher attributes is roughly half a standard deviation of universe score gains – even larger when teaching experience is also allowed to vary. The bottom line is that there are important differences in teacher effectiveness that are systematically related to observed teacher attributes. Such effects are important from a policy perspective, and should be taken into account in the formulation and implementation of personnel policies.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.wcer.wisc.edu/news/events/VAM%20Conference%20Final%20Papers/MeasuringEffectSizes_BoydEtAl.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.wcer.wisc.edu/news/events/VAM%20Conference%20Final%20Papers/MeasuringEffectSizes_BoydEtAl.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ken Hirsh</title>
		<link>http://gothamschools.org/2009/02/27/a-study-only-an-economist-could-love/comment-page-1/#comment-50426</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Hirsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gothamschools.org/?p=10458#comment-50426</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Aaron,

Thanks for this post: it summarizes a long paper in a clear manner and gets to the heart of the results.  I wasn&#039;t aware of some of the specifics of the sample set.  

You write: &quot;... if you&#039;re a Texas principal interested in hiring an early elementary grade teacher with a few years of experience into a small classroom based on generic standardized test scores, this is the study for you.&quot;  The study could also be useful to policymakers, principals, and others that are willing to consider the data to be relevant to, if not the same as, their own circumstances.  Your list of particular facts about the data can help them to judge the relevance.

Regardless, if I read it correctly, the study gives an example of traditional certification and extra coursework having no impact on effectiveness.  My understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that the vast majority of studies on this general subject reach similar conclusions.  I would be curious to hear about your favorite studies that reach different conclusions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Aaron,</p>
<p>Thanks for this post: it summarizes a long paper in a clear manner and gets to the heart of the results.  I wasn&#8217;t aware of some of the specifics of the sample set.  </p>
<p>You write: &#8220;&#8230; if you&#8217;re a Texas principal interested in hiring an early elementary grade teacher with a few years of experience into a small classroom based on generic standardized test scores, this is the study for you.&#8221;  The study could also be useful to policymakers, principals, and others that are willing to consider the data to be relevant to, if not the same as, their own circumstances.  Your list of particular facts about the data can help them to judge the relevance.</p>
<p>Regardless, if I read it correctly, the study gives an example of traditional certification and extra coursework having no impact on effectiveness.  My understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that the vast majority of studies on this general subject reach similar conclusions.  I would be curious to hear about your favorite studies that reach different conclusions.</p>
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