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second opinion

February 20, 2009

In Park Slope and Flatbush, two moms and two views on testing

by Philissa Cramer, at 6:07 pm

A recent poll found that while half of public school parents approve of Mayor Bloomberg’s takeover of the school, half do not. Two mothers I met yesterday underscore that divide.

The first mother, who lives in Park Slope, told me she feared her daughter’s school would spend too much time prepping kids for standardized tests. It’s a familiar worry: that schools eschew instruction that stimulates creative thinking when they know they’ll be evaluated on the basis of their state test scores. (A new study has borne out this fear, at least for schools that fare the worst on the city’s evaluation system, Elizabeth reported yesterday.)

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Chancellor Joel Klein speaks to two Explore Charter School parents. PTA president Stephanie Campbell is on the left.

Later, while I was at Explore Charter School in Flatbush for Secretary of Education Arne Duncan’s visit, PTA president Stephanie Campbell told me she loves how much her sixth-grade son is tested. Teachers at Explore are vigilant about identifying and addressing problems her son is having, she said. At his neighborhood school, which he last attended as a first-grader in 2004, teachers didn’t generate the data that would have revealed a delay, Campbell said. “I didn’t know he had a problem with reading until he got here,” she said.

Now, Campbell said she uses the results of her son’s frequent tests to know what skills she should work on with him at home. In fact, even though she said she likes Explore’s small classes of about 16 students, she said the frequest testing is the school’s feature she values most. “As long as we keep testing, it’s okay with me if you put 30 kids in the class,” she said.

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  • Smith

    Very interesting. Does Explore do a lot of test prep the way the public schools do? I’ve always like the way Acuity (or ARIS, or whatever it’s called) breaks down test scores by particular skills. My objection is to the time spent the kids spend doing standardized test practice.

  • ceolaf

    Thank you for posting this, Ms. Cramer. It’s great to see a countervailing view, and one based on real students with real needs.

    I would like to push back against what Ms. Campbell said, at least a little bit.

    Teachers and schools DO need to assess students frequently, through a variety of both less and more formal means. If teachers cannot spot students’ issues without more formal testing, then formal testing is a good idea. But if teachers can spot issues without expensive (i.e in money, in time, etc.) formal testing, the formal testing might not be in order.

  • Parent

    Students at Explore are prep for the state exams but at the same time they are being taught regular acedimics. The test that are frequently given are to make sure that the student that are stuggling with read and math and are in small setting study group are gaining and understand the instructions. This is to let the parents see that the child is making progress in the small group. This is not taking away from the students regular classes. I love the small class size at Explore and as I know 30 is a lot of students I would not like to see the clase size get that high; but because of the great teaching staff the student would still get the help they needed. At Explore we have prep after school for state exam and saturday academy. Student at Explore are taught to reach for the top in all they do. The Parents are given prep for the state exam also; we have Family ELA night and Family math night where we get an idea of the test that our students will be taking and how we help them in prepare for th exams. We are on big community family at Explore parents share with other parents so we can help all our children reach/exceed their goals. At our monthly PTA meeting a lot of information is shared. It takes a village to raise a child and we truly believe that.

  • Mrs. Campbell

    This is to continue from my previous comment above sorry for not putting in my name This is Mrs. Campbell. Let me be very clear my entire statement was not written in the article; Explore teaching staff is very hands on and does spot children with potential reading and math difficulties. However testing is such an important part because prior to Mayoral control without the testing children graduated from high school without the necessary skills they needed to acheive in this society. Therefore there has to be in my opinion testing because the data needs to be recorded so schools can be held accountable and targeted if crucial deficits are found. Explore Charter School year is not set up as regular public school we go extended day extended year this give us(teachers-adminstraters-parents) more of a greater opportunity to work closely with our students.

  • http://www.davidcbloomfield.com David C. Bloomfield

    It would appear that Explore does not use the periodic assessments used by the DOE. There is clearly a difference between regular teacher-made assessments which no one objects to and standardized tests that limit the curriculum and encourage reliance on superficial test-taking strategies.

  • ceolaf

    Ms. Campbell,

    Here is my concern about what I think you are saying — and please let me know if I have thing wrong!

    The current model of frequent formal testing is especially important because OTHER schools have done so poorly by the kids in the past (e.g. high school prior to mayoral control). You are NOT in favor of Explore adopting the frequent formal testing that is mandated for non-charter public schools in the city.

    Is that right? Is that what you mean?

    We have a history in this country of evaluating schools overall poorly, local schools decently and our own children’s school pretty well. The annual PDK poll has shown this going back as long as they’ve been doing the poll (40 years, now), I think.

    http://www.pdkmembers.org/members_online/publications/e-GALLUP/kpoll_pdfs/pdkpoll40_2008.pdf

    I am wary of prescriptions for other people’s schools, that are not needed for people’s own school. Obviously, non-professionals can understand many thing about their own children’s schools quite well with their intimate knowledge of them, even if much of that knowledge is filtered through the experiences of children. Non-professionals can lend valuable insight and critical accountability when they have good knowledge of the functioning of a schools. But without that intimate knowledge of a particular school, I am concerns about the requirements that non-professionals might place on others’ schools.

    Ms. Campbell, if your school is doing well with its methods — and I have every reason to believe that it is doing well — why would you suggest that other schools use other methods? If it works there are Explore, why wouldn’t it work at other schools?

    (I am not saying that professionals do not make this same kind of mistake. However, I think that professionals — who potentially have a both and broader and deeper knowledge of how schools work — can offer advice or ideas for schools that they do not know intimately well. Expertise actually can substitute for deep first hand experience. However, there are also many professionals who lack the particular knowledge that they might need to make the suggestions they make. I am a professional, but I can hardly make demands on the best way to teach reading to 2nd graders. I know about a great deal of things in education, but 2nd grade reading is not one of them. My professional status should not give me carte blanche to spout off about each and every aspect of education.)

  • Sheryl Davis

    What Mr. Bloomfield states is a great concern, thats why schools like Explore have prepared our students for the test by giving them the necessary in class instruction needed, instead of preparing them on how to take a test. The ELA and Math classes are innovative.Differentiated learning strategies are incorporated in every subject, including Science and Social Studies. If every school held themselves to these standards maybe standardized testing would not be a necessary evil, until then they will be needed.

  • Sheryl Davis

    to ceolaf;

    If not you then who? I am a bit confused where was it written that Explore does not take the same mandated exams as the rest of the public school system, we sure do. I dont belileve you need to be a professional in order to be involved, ask questions and become a part of the solution in your school. Open communication and the willingness of school administration to be transparent in the goings on of education are important steps to that end. The difference in Explore and other public schools is the abilty to think out of the box,try new things all to our childrens benefit. Anyone can join the bandwagon but it is going to take a change of mindset.

  • ceolaf

    Ms. Davis,

    1) If not me, who? Well, if you are referring to my hesitance to criticize strategies for teaching 2nd grade reading, I would say those who actually have more knowledge of it than I do. I would say those who have read a great deal about it, who have spent time trying to do it. And I would say those who have the experience of a child going through some of them right now. But without experience or expertise, it’s best that I stay out of it.

    I agree with you that you don’t need to be a professional to ask questions. And I agree with you that you don’t need to be a professional to become part of the solution in your school. Rather, I am wary of people who make pronouncements — as though they are providing answers — for others’ schools, especially when they don’t have professional experience or expertise to rely on.

    Ms. Campbell is the PTA president at Explore, and in her comment in this thread she wrote of the need for tests at high schools around the city. Lots of people talk or write about schools they know rather little about, and that concerns me. However, I applaud her efforts to get involved with her own children’s school, and if she develops some real expertise she might also get involved with other similar schools. She might even rightly critique them from afar. But her intimate knowledge of Explore does not prepare her to criticize the city’s high schools from afar, just as my experience in the city’s high schools does not prepare me criticize Explore from afar.

    2) I have no doubt that Explore gives all the tests that the state requires of all public schools. But the city also has a number of requirements in this area that do not apply to charter schools. Heck, I don’t even know if charter schools — as opposed to non-charter new small schools — can get the DOE to grade and report on them. Do you know whether Explore is doing all of the city’s assessments, even the ones it does not have to do?

    I presumed that Mr. Bloomfield was correct when he commented (above) that Explore does not do all the city tests. If he is wrong then much of my criticism of Ms. Campbell is without basis. While my broader point would still hold, I would have been wrong to apply it to her. Heck, there are a lot of possible reasons why I could have been wrong to apply my point to her. It could be that she has 15 years experience as principle in the city’s schools. If I was wrong, either in my presumption that she is not an an education professional or in my relying on Mr. Bloomfield about the city’s assessment, I owe her an apology and will not hesitate to offer one.

    3) There are plenty of public schools where teachers think outside the box. Some of them are charter schools, and some of them are not. Heck, there are even the most conventional of charter schools. Explore is not alone in thinking outside the box.

    Prof. Huerta of TC and many others have done a lot of research in to the pressures on charter schools that PREVENT them from thinking outside the box. If Explore is still able to do so, it is testament to the entire community there, including the leadership, the staff, the parents and even the students. I am glad to hear that it has done so.

  • Angela

    We are a regular elementary school (Title I) and we are exempt from several of the interim assessments because it is one of the choices offered by the DOE. We were approved for Design Your Own Assessments and the teachers all have been a part of the design and implementation. As Sheryl says, you have to think out of the box and have a different mindset, we have to do more than complain and blame. I have never once heard this administration promoting the use of lots of test prep and as a principal I am not certainly not a proponent of it. As a school we authentically assess students on a regular basis, engage children in the learning process and we show excellent progress on yearly standarized tests.

  • ceolaf

    Angela,

    So, Explore designs its own periodic assessments, in addition to the regular annual state tests and the regular informal assessment that teachers do every day?

    That sounds awesome! I’ve long felt that getting people involved in designing assessments is a very powerful tool to deepen understanding of what is being assessed. I can totally see how it would lead to more thoughtful and more successful teaching there at Explore, and better use of the data these assessments generate.

    A parent (Ms. Campbell) certainly thinks that your assessments are working. A teacher (Ms. Davis) thinks so. An administrator thinks so (you). And the state’s own tests seem to confirm this. That’s a lot of support!

    Can you tell more about the more formal assessments you design there? Ms. Campbell mentioned frequent tests. I’d love to know more about how you — as school — help teachers to integrate authentic assessment into their pedagogy.

  • Angela

    What??? I am not at Explore….did you read the posting?

  • ceolaf

    Angela,

    I’m sorry. I thought when you said “we” that you were referring to Explore.

  • Sheryl Davis

    Angela, I am convinced that CEOLAF is making it up as he goes along, he has misquoted you, Ms Campbell and myself. and has come up with conclusions that none of us have stated. I can therefore statethat when my children are ready to go to high school I will make certain his name is not on the roster as part of the administration to any school they may be looking into.

    Have a great day everyone.

  • ceolaf

    Ms. Davis,

    Can I ask how I misquoted you, Ms. Campbell or Angela?

    I understand I misunderstood Angela when you wrote “we are a regular public school,” — I thought that she was a teacher at Explore trying to explain, as many charter school teachers do, that Explore deals with parents, and kids, and pressure and requirements as other public schools, and asserting that Explore IS a public school. And I presumed that you were a teacher at Explore — again the “we” confused me.

    I was wrong, clearly. But how did I misquote you? Or Ms. Campbell? Or even Angela?

    I think that we agree on a lot of things, such as the importance of parents and the community asking questions and getting involved. We might even agree that many professionals use their professional status to criticize things beyond their expertise without admitting that they are lay people on those topics — and I refer to central office, higher ed and policy-makers for the most part in this. (In my experience, teachers understand how demanding and complex their own work is, and do not make very many pronouncements about what teachers on other levels should do.)

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