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I finally figured out who Socrates really is.
He is Jay Mathews.

Norm, I’m certain that you’re right; I’m very used to this kind of surreal back-and-forth. Here’s the standard one, undoubtedly displayed in the string above.

Me: But charter schools self-select for more-motivated families.
Charter advocate: They do not and you’re a racist for saying so.
Me: (Present backup that is too clear-cut to refute).
Charter advocate: What’s wrong with self-selecting? Why would you complain about the fact that charter schools self-select?

I’m not an advocate of trying to ID posters or speculate on their motivations, personally. I don’t conceal my identity, but those folks are always trying to speculate on mine. (“Self-serving” — “pawn of teachers’ unions” — etc.) I would assume that the charter Mafia, since it has an excess of money and in my opinion a critical shortage of ethics, does have paid shills posting all over well-read blogs like this, but I’m not going to try to single anyone out.

Caroline,
I didn’t see your post before my last response. I’ll address this to Kitchen Sink too. We single out Socrates (and we have learned to recognize him in all his various configurations) because of his inherent dishonesty, claiming to be a long-time NYC teacher for many months and a pro-Klein at that. But it was immediately clear that his lack of interest in the class size issue and the obviously phony anecdotes like his outrage at the symbolic teacher who read the newspaper all day made his personna suspect. We tracked numerous ip addresses from different locations and the number of comments posted during the day when he was supposed to be teaching. Plus an obvious high end internet service that allowed for some deception.

Real teachers were incensed at the outrage of this level of deception as people on the net honestly responded to what appeared to be the deceptive experiences of a public school teacher. The comments section of my blog is littered with Socrates’ phony missives. A number of blogs banned him for his dishonesty, not for his views. You capture the level of discourse of the charter mafia which as expressed by Socrates, who by the way, had a brief blog which revealed the connections to the charter school mafia, but which he took down.

If I were to pretend to be a KIPP teacher miserable at the experience but in reality a paid KIPP basher, there would be a justifiable level of outrage. Lucky, most people we meet online, no matter where they come from politically, seem to be honest brokers, unlike Socrates.

I’ll close with this. At our conference on Saturday, a Harlem Success parent attended and told us all parents were required to attend Harlem Success rallies. Another parent brought along another charter school application for a school going into PS 150 in Brownsville which listed the things parents were required to do. Some list. All things we probably would like to see public school parents do but we had no way to enforce any of it. The contract implied that they were not welcome otherwise.

OK Norm, attack away. But by just flinging invective you’ll get about as far with a real debate and a real contribution as Norm from Cheers: lots of welcomes and slaps on the back but in the end an empty beer mug to show for it.

Those of us who are engaged on the charter side of the debate (and I don’t want all your other baggage you’re flinging on my back, I couldn’t care less about Michelle Rhee or the Broad Foundation, I care about teacher quality and that’s what charter schools have allowed me to explore), we believe that our urban (yes: black students) schools are in a terrible crisis. Lots of things are wrong. I’m not interested in pointing fingers at Randi, Joel, Jay or Santa Claus. Charter people – some of them – put their heads down, focus on outcomes and try their hardest to deliver to some of the neediest families around. If you disagree with the outcomes, well then we can start having a real conversation. But if you’re just throwing mud then I’m going back to my beer mug.

No secret formula, friend. Your work is admirable. It would be a lot easier with a lot fewer headaches in a charter school. The very things you’re complaining about (at the end of your post) is the motivation for a lot of charter school founders and teachers who have jumped to charters.

Hi,

I think that KIPP is a great school and i’m speaking from experience. I’m in my last year and I know that i’m going to miss all of my teachers including the founder and principel. I’ll always feel like if I hadn’t gone to kipp that i would probably not be as informed as I am now.

~ a KIPPSTER

Amen to that Mom of KIPPSTER! The people on this site want to make up your mind for you. They think that minority parents are too stupid to make educational decisions for their children and so they want to make them for you, but forcing you to continue attending crappy neighborhood schools just to provide solace to their idea of “educational equality.” Thanks for providing a viewpoint to reality for these lost liberals.

Mr. Michael M, If you read my comment correctly, My comment was not about the color of my child but his education. Is that not what we are talking about. Also, i do not live in a low income neighborhood anymore and my children STILL attend a charter school. Now that i have placed one of them in these schools,I have placed 2 more in them. I as a Parent have went to several PTA meetings in public school, and to see the turn out at these meetings is sad. You can not beg the parents to get involved there. Which at Charter schools, they make home visits, and they have at least 22 students in each class. Imagine that! They take the time to get to know the students. Can i say that for public schools, um no. The only time i receive a call from a public school teacher is when my child has done something bad? Why not good? My child has everyone of his teachers cell phone numbers to contact them in case he has questionsnow. Not to mention he has 7 teachers all together. Public schools do not offer that. Why not? If we had the same standards at every school that would be nice, but once again it falls back on the interest of the teachers. We all have to work together in this. We should not fight about it. If you come to the table with a problem, well, have a solution. Let’s make things better for our kids, not just lash out.

Michael M. sums up the issue with one sentence:

“Charters are benefitting at the expense of non-charters.”

And I agree with him here:

“I do not want to see education, the bedrock of the rise of the middle class in this country, taken over by corporate interests to the exclusion of parent input.”

Some responses to Mom of KIPPster:

“Do any of you critics have children?” Yes, two urban public school students.

***
I disagree with and object to the bashing of non-KIPP teachers that KIPP encourages. It’s wrong, unethical, harmful and ultimately suicidal (as it harms support for ALL schools) for KIPP to encourage the hostility and attacks that Mom of KIPPster engages in.

“the teachers were not doing their jobs … They have teachers who actually care about the kids not just the pay checks. Thats what public schools lack.”

That’s a mean, unfair and inaccurate generalization, and it’s really nasty of KIPP to encourage that kind of thinking. KIPP requires its teachers to work extra-long hours, be available by cellphone etc., placing superhuman demands on them that no one can live up to for more than a short time — which is why KIPP has extremely high teacher turnover.

Here’s what the organization Rethinking Schools has said about that concept:

“Reforms are bound to fail if they rely on the voluntarism of idealistic, overworked teachers who burn out and leave the school once they decide to have a family or want any semblance of a meaningful personal life.”

No one is saying that KIPP never takes troubled children. But KIPP does not take the MOST problematic students, the lowest-functioning and least-motivated. It only accepts students who have parents/guardians who care enough to seek out the school, apply, sign commitments, etc. etc. etc.

Mom of KIPPster understands that KIPP seeks out students with “motivated parents that want better for their children…”

Yes, those are the students who are likely to be ultimately more motivated and more successful; that’s how KIPP creams.

Dissenter, I agree that it seems to be effective and successful for low-income, at-risk kids to be educated in situations where they’re separated from the most-troubled of their peers. So that’s the impact of creaming. The most messed-up kids are in one place, and the kids who have higher-functioning, more-motivated parents are in another. Such a system doesn’t solve any problems or work any miracles for those most-messed-up kids, but it does seem to help the higher-functioning, more-motivated kids.

So here are my issues with that situation as it pertains to KIPP:

– KIPP and its supporters — including Jay Mathews, whose book was the subject of this post — often insist that KIPP does not cream; they say it accepts those most-messed-up kids to whom we are referring. But KIPP DOES cream and DOES NOT accept those most messed-up kids. Claiming otherwise is a misconception or a lie, depending on the degree of knowledge of the person perpetuating the misinformation. For a number of reasons, it’s really wrong to lie like that, and KIPP and its supporters need to cut that **** out.

– If the traditional public school down the street could ALSO exclude and/or get rid of those most-messed-up kids, could it do as well as the KIPP school? We don’t know, because there is not open acknowledgment that KIPP creams, so the impact of that creaming is not clear.

– It would be useful to all of public education if the different aspects of the KIPP program could be studied so it was clear what has the most impact. But it’s not possible to do that when there isn’t honest acknowledgment of the creaming factor.

– Teachers in traditional public schools unfairly get attacked, blamed and bashed (as we saw the KIPP mom do), while KIPP teachers unfairly get praised to the heavens, when the real difference is that the KIPP students have been through the creaming process. That’s wrong.

I’m really interesting in the creaming factor. Here’s a scenario I would suggest, perhaps as a pilot project, for low-income urban schools:

Figure out how to create a setup so that every student has a choice of two schools. School A is accessible only if the student/family specifically requests it. School B other is the default school — students who make no request and do nothing get that school. Perhaps School A might have some other admission requirements — students and family must sign commitments to good behavior, etc. Otherwise, continue to teach as before in both School A and School B. Then let’s see if School A suddenly becomes much more successful, and its students become higher achievers, with the more-troubled, lower-functioning kids having been removed and clustered together in School B. God help everyone involved with School B, but at least the kids in School A have benefited.

That IS roughly the way enrollment works in my school district, San Francisco Unified. And that does mean that schools with more requests than openings get no default assignments of students who lacked parents/guardians motivated enough to participate in that request process. Our choice process is districtwide — students may apply to any school in the district. (San Francisco is a small, dense city, just 7×7 miles — so distances aren’t great.)

What disadvantaged families of color complain about, though, is that schools in disadvantaged neighborhoods are, almost without exception, the schools that don’t fill up by request and thus get those default assignments. So if a family in a disadvantaged neighborhood wants a school that has no students assigned by default, they must apply to a popular school elsewhere in the city (though there’s likely to a popular school not geographically that far away — just not quite in the same neighborhood), and enter a lottery in the hopes of winning a seat. That process deters some families. My concept would somehow GUARANTEE every student the request-only school he/she had applied for.

Charter folks are divided between those who openly agree that creaming is desirable and the others — misinformed or dishonest — who claim that no creaming goes on. My view is that if creaming is benefiting some low-income, at-risk students (those motivated enough to participate in the creaming process), perhaps we should institutionalize it.

Caroline, Creaming is one of the rationalizations used to explain charter success when one doesn’t want to acknowledge that hard work, longer hours, and the best teachers make the difference.

The Boston Charter School study released recently studied the differences in achievement between kids who applied to charters via random lottery and got in, vs. those who didn’t. It effectively defeats the argument that creaming is a factor.

http://www.gse.harvard.edu/blog/news_features_releases/2009/01/new-study-of-boston-charter-and-pilot-schools-finds-charter-schools-have-positive-effects-on-student.html
John

Caroline, Sweetie I dont know why you are so upset that KIPP gets good praises. If and when my child or a friend of mines child went to a good public school, I would also give praises. Here in Dallas, we do have good public schools, but you have to be accepted in these schools also. Yes public schools. For example and i really hate to call names or even CREAM about this school, but TOWNVIEW, i’m sure you have heard of it. It is a very good PUBLIC SCHOOL NOT CHARTER. Let me use this as an example. If i go into a restaurant and I love the food, i am going to CREAM about it. So why knock KIPP down for the good progress it has made. Also let me apologize because i am not that type of mother that likes to bash others, its not my place to judge anyone, I am not GOD. But, my children have been in public schools for years not just a couple either. MOST of the teachers in public schools i have dealt with really dont show no concern for my childrens education. Now not all teachers are like that. Once again I apologize for that comment. Now I like the long hours and saturday schools, and summer school for my children. It helps them out alot. If you think its hard for the teachers, well think about the kids and parents also. But once again it helps them.
Caroline are you not listening to the kids that are also commenting on KIPP. It’s not CREAMING its just them trying to express how they feel. Dont knock a child for that, that’s what some public schools do and that makes children not even think of college. You have to remember these are children, they have feelings too. Don’t your children? If they believe this type of school is helping them, then why should you care who is funding it or who invented it or any of that? As my aunt once told me L.I.G. IT…. let it go. if it works, why fix it. One more thing Caroline, living around children that are not motivated and parents also, its hard to make them want better. Even when you try and go above and beyond for unmotivated people THEY have to want better for themselves. Do knock down the ones that are motivated. I have 6 children of my own, raised 3 brothers and 2 sisters, I still take on more children and help motivate them. But i can not help the world. Let’s take it one school at a time and once again COME WITH A SOLUTION. Don’t get mad at these men for trying to help some students and parents out, why don’t you as a person help someone else out, not knock them down. you made a comment, “But KIPP does not take the MOST problematic students, the lowest-functioning and least-motivated. It only accepts students who have parents/guardians who care enough to seek out the school, apply, sign commitments, etc. etc. etc.” I ask you this and please don’t be upset with it, how do you reach out to those parents who care if their child graduates or not? Just like world hunger, i get upset when i see starving children around me so i feel like how can we feed the rest of the country when we can not even feed the children in the united states. Well for me i try and do what i can for the ones i see struggling. So, please as a KIPP mother, help me to understand what it is that you want from all of this? I have a step-daughter that goes to school half day, because she doesn’t want to go a full day. Why? because she is lazy and wants to graduate faster, but does she has a mind set to want to go to college, um no. See caroline, i see this from both sides, I am not bashing public schools, I am telling you from experience. KIPP is not paying me to say none of this, nor the children, i happened to be looking for some info when i ran across the book and this website. These are all opinions, if everyone did not have one what kind of world would this be. So to say this, KIPP is not encouraging no one to say anything, we are speaking from positive experience. I am happy for you also that you have wonderful children that are doing so well in public schools. I am not a hostile person at all, I am just finally excited i found such a school that is able to help me and my children out and want more for them. So please dont take my words and turn as if i am angry. Let’s see what works for all schools. Oh and yes one of the districts here also has looked into KIPP and studied it. They really want to follow the same pattern as KIPP. It seems to be a growing thing to want the children to have extended days so they can shorten the class size show that they care more for the children. I love any school that helps children set goals and meet them, charter or non charter.

I was reverse creamed once when they decided to add a 5th grade class in December because there were over 34 in each class. I was to be the teacher. The AP asked each teacher to pick 7 kids. And so they did. I taught that class fo 28 kids for the next year and a half through the 6th grade and it was tough. I spent a lot of time putting out fires.

To Mom of KIPP: You might have complained about me as a teacher for not being able to give your child the attention he needed in this situation. The point is, this group of particular children in a class of 28 was too much. The next year I had a more balanced class with the same numbers and the difference was significant.

The point is that if your son was in a class with many kids who are struggling even at KIPP there may have been the same issues. But KIPP through creaming makes sure that doesn’t happen. Great for you and your son. Not so great for the rest who remain in public school.

So the concept of a school like KIPP is not bad. But if the DOE set up a separate school with less problems they might have the same impact on your son.

My point is that no serious attempt has been made in the public schools to address these kinds of problems by creating small classes.

I agee that the arguments on the bigger issues mean nothing to a parent. But if all schools in your city were KIPP then you would see the same problems, one reason KIPP shuns the idea of taking over a bloc of schools in a contiguous area. Give them the Detroit school system which might very well happen and watch the results.

Do Middle class parents get to send their children whereever they wish to send them?

The overwhelming majority of middle class people in this country have 2 choices. The local public school or private school. In Long Island or Westchester. Or upstate NY. Are all suburban districts equal? No. It seems the richer districts spend more and their schools are considered “better.” Just check the class sizes.

In the city the middle class areas don’t have a lot of other choices either. Yet see what is happening when charters are trying to get a wedge. It is middle class parents who are protesting.

As for the rich, they really throw cash at their schools, mainly for the lower class sizes.

Wow, too many posts to respond to without a long period to spend on it. I’m singling out John’s comment, which indicates that he doesn’t get it:

John says: “The Boston Charter School study released recently studied the differences in achievement between kids who applied to charters via random lottery and got in, vs. those who didn’t. It effectively defeats the argument that creaming is a factor.”

No, that doesn’t make sense; you’re missing the point. The sound comparison would be between students who applied to charters vs. students who NEVER APPLIED TO CHARTERS, or otherwise exercised any options; students who simply went to the schools they were assigned by default.

As a parent of a Kippster who’s son was formerly a public school student the problem seems to be within the Public School system. My son thrived in Public School as he does further and beyond @ Kipp. I don’t understand y the public school system does not incorporate some Kipp School ideas. There are some really good motivated students in public schools as there are really unmotivated students @ Kipp. It is true that students who have parents that believe that there children can do above the limits of their surroundings will prob fair better in any school. I don’t believe that all Kipp students and parents come in this some but most if not all end this way as involved parents of students who believe in themselves and their abilities regardless of color,race,class, there parents level of education,there parents finances or the neighborhood they live in. I wish that all schools could give students the quality education that Kipp has offered my son. Every single teacher I’ve encountered is willing to offer praise and critique as well. They teach accountability. It comes down to the student and parent to determine how hard they’re willing to work to reach there goals of a quality education.. Kipp Academy Bronx I have nothing but praise and grattitude for all of you from the principal to the teachers to the founders of the whole Kipp Education..