GC report — Now I could understand why we never could trust our broker..We can’t beat the big banks, but we can join them.

The fact is that the economy is bad all over has made it extremely difficult for even new teachers graduating to find jobs. In my book, this should never be. Teachers are getting laid off, excessed etc. This is a disgrace as you have many excellent veteran teachers as well as many excellent new Master’s Degree teachers coming into the field. Let everyone work together and support each other as teachers, with the respect deserving of your craft whether you are a new or veteran teacher. The fact remains you are all teachers and in your own style have something unique to contribute to the field. Be supportive of each other rather than argumentative as in the interim, its you vs. those in higher authority who many have no concept of the skill it takes to stand on your feet all day and teach a class of mostly unruly students for 6+ hrs. every day. Your job is made more difficult by the mere fact that you don’t get a break when you go home, as your evenings consist of planning your lessons and correcting homework for the next day.

I am proud of the job that all teachers do as they are rarely given enough credit as it is. There will always be mediocre workers, hard workers and excellent workers in their craft. You must all remember that respect and empathy goes a long way. No one teacher should speak of what a good or bad job another teacher is doing unless you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. Young teachers have much to learn, yet others are simply born to be great teachers. Veteran teachers have gained irreplaceable experience from years on the job, yet others have experienced what some call teacher burn out. No matter what shoe you fit in, suffice it to say that the majority of teachers go into this field with high hope of making a positive difference in the lives of their young students. It is important to always be conscious of the fact that some may have an easier or more difficult job than others dependent on your geographic location, the grade level, or the type of community you teach in, therefore one teacher should never sit in judgment of another. For the respect that you demonstrate toward each other is reflected in the respect that others will demonstrate towards you. You must remember, if you work together as a team, a unit, any bad principal can be eliminated from his position. Teachers are there to teach, principals are there to govern. If both units don’t work together collaboratively, respecting each others opinions and professional skills, the system ultimately fails and its the students who are short changed and lose out in the interim.

Don’t stand behind each other bickering over small pet peeves, as teachers you should stand beside each other as all teachers are in this fight together. As teachers you deserve high recognition for attempting to teach in a society that has more violent prone students than ever before in history. In this day and age, especially in most inner city schools, you deserve the highest praise for even lasting the first 2 years. The Mayor Bloombergs and Governor Pattersons and the Arne Duncans of the world have never taught a full week in any school a day in their entire lives, yet they stand in authority making decisions that negatively affect students and teachers for years to come. Its for you teachers to stand as one and make your voices heard. You deserve to be heard, you deserve monetary recognition for succeeding where others have failed, but most of all you deserve to be honored for the hard and most difficult job you tackle every day you step foot into your classroom.

Do not lose your perspective on the issues facing you today, if those in authority continue to cut teaching jobs, eliminate paras, if school resources begin to dwindle, if classroom size once again rises making it impossible for teachers to effectively teach and reach every student, if special need students are denied access to the services they are entitled to under NCLB and IDEA, then our school systems will once again fail and the recent rise in test scores will decline as they have in the past. In the interim its not only the students who will suffer, but society as a whole as we will in effect be graduating dummies of the future to run our businesses and affairs. Then where will be and what economic and political position will this put us in as a nation in comparison to other countries! It is for you as teachers, stand together as One for United We Stand, Divided We Fall!

Yes, the “rubber rooms” are obviously a danger of giving principals too much power. I agree that teachers should be involved, more of a “balance of power” kind of thing. I think it’s terrible that so many people have become targets of vindictive, even immature “leaders.” It’s criminally unfair that some teachers have given so much, and been treated so horrendously in return. [I'm seeing this with "young" teachers too, though. There is a TRULY fantastic teacher at our school who works 70 hours a week and really does an excellent job with the students. Bottom line, for whatever reason, our principal hates her and treats her like crap, gives her unfairly bad reviews, etc. Where the new teacher once wanted to stay in education, she is now on the verge of being run off by a terrible admin.]

I still can’t condone / stand piss-poor educators knowingly being left in the classroom to the very real detriment of our students. That seems to fly in the face of the “oath” (metaphorical, of course) that we all take as teachers.

There’s got to be *some* way to ensure that good teachers are protected and bad teachers are removed in a fair, yet expedient manner. [Expedient is NOT the year plus it's taken this guy at our school...those poor kids haven't learned ANYTHING all year, nor last year!]

Ideas?

~L

The fact is that no one–including die hard union people like myself–wants to see incompetent teachers in the classroom. Weakening tenure isn’t the answer. That would open the door for administrators to go after senior teachers and new teachers alike with impunity. If a teacher is truly incompetent or burnt out, there is a mechanism in place to remove them. Is it a long and complicated process? You bet, and well it should be. I can tell you endless stories of good teachers with 15, 20, 25, even 30 years of experience who were targeted by administrators with only a few years in the system, thanks to catastrophes like the Leadership Academy.

You should be aware that many teachers with spotless records and decades worth of satisfactory ratings are languishing in the rubber rooms at the whim of vindictive principals. Chapter leaders and union supporters are frequent targets, as are other higher salaried teachers.

I don’t have a perfect answer, either, but I think involving teachers in the process would be a good start. Admins with an agenda are not the answer.

I’m glad that you’d stand up for me as a fellow union member, as I would for you. If we ever begin to turn things around, that will be the way it will starts.

While I won’t concede that you are able to do something faster than me because you’re better at it simply because you’ve done it more, neither will I deny that it is entirely possible, and perhaps even probable. Though, I know several teachers at my school that have 20 years of teaching on me who ask me every semester to help them plan their units (etc), and I have been hired by two companies to do curriculum mapping for them [but that's neither here nor there]. So, you may be right about your speed over mine; You’re wrong about the “data collection” though…I agree that largely, it is a waste of time. One of the reasons I love being a Reading teacher is that I have no “test” (Regents) to teach to, and can really teach the good stuff to my kids. My “hard work” actually comes in when it comes to two days of tutoring, one to two days of ESL, one day of data team (bleh!), and one day of a CLEP club I created because our juniors and seniors have no chance at honors / AP classes.

My other “hard work” comes in when I run out into the hallways to break up a fight (or brawl of 150 students that happened last month) and most of the other teachers sit placidly sipping their coffee and grading papers in the teacher’s lounge. There are countless other things I do, but this doesn’t make me special…it just makes me a teacher. I believe that teachers sign up to do more than their 4-5 classes a day with summers off. Teaching, to me, is a calling…and when some people who’ve put in many years start to do only what is required of them, you bet your bottom dollar it gets me riled! Now, does that mean I want to ship them off to Walmart, as you said? Of course not. However, I also wouldn’t prefer to see some “older” (mid-term or younger too) teacher allowed to stay and do the minimum while the students suffer, and two or three younger / cheaper teachers forced to leave (and their “extra” services go with them) just because the older teacher has “put in their time.” [But, as I've stated numerous times before...I don't have the answer as to how to make this fair and principal-proof]

To answer two earlier questions of yours: Of *course* you deserve to be paid more than me, as does the military officer whose been leading for years. [Don't get me started on me being a Sergeant and getting paid less than a fresh O-1 when I had the same degree as him and did more work... ]. It just makes sense, and reflects your many years of service. We would never be able to attract viable teaching candidates without a fair payscale. That was *never* my problem in these posts…only those that milk the system because they know it is tough to get rid of them after a certain point. And yes, this IS true, I’m watching it right now at my school with a teacher that the entire faculty saw was basically doing 20%, treating the students like crap, not keeping a grade book and making his grades up, not planning lessons, letting the kids run crazy, the whole 9 yards. The principal (rightly!) tried to get rid of him, and he’s been fighting it tooth and nail for the last year or so. Came back with a UFT rep to watch / rate him after getting 3 or 4 U’s in a row. The kids hate him, even other teacher’s that co-teach with him can’t stand him…and yet here he is, collecting twice as much as others busting their butts and giving 110%. Is that right? What should we do about him and the 2-3 other teachers in my faculty of 25 that are almost as bad?

And as to the “fighting” for you part…absolutely. I neglected to “answer” that part earlier because, to me, it seemed so obvious…YES! ALL teachers (in general) need to support each other, march for each other, etc. I’ve been to City Hall and (as I said in an earlier post) spoke up for ATRs at our school / in our building when it was NOT the popular thing to do…because it was right. I will continue to do so, and am glad to hear that you will do the same for me.

If we don’t truly watch out for each other, we’re finished. I may be “young” but even a neophyte like me can tell that unions, bureaucrats, and others will turn on us as soon as it is expedient…

~L

The fact is, if you want talented people to build a career in a profession, you reward longevity and achievement. My several decades of superlative teaching and experience entitle me to be paid more than you. If you don’t like that, try to find a profession where it’s different. You won’t.

You don’t want to hear this, but the reason you think you work ‘harder’ than veterans is because you have to. It probably takes you twice as long to plan an effective lesson as me, because I’ve planned thousands more than you. Also, I’d wager that much of that hard work you claim to do is data collection that the DOE has convinced you is the cornerstone of teaching. It is not. It is a waste of time.

But all this is beside the point. As I said, I would gladly fight for your rights and your job. I’d walk the picket line, as I have many times before, to stand up for you. You’re a teacher and a fellow union member, and that means you deserve my respect and support. I wonder if you’d do the same for me and my rights.

You didn’t answer that question.

If you call my affront at your crankiness “ageism” then so be it. You (and other older teachers here) think attacking young teachers and our supposed “naivety” is the answer, but you are wrong. I never professed to have the answers. Do you?? No, I didn’t think so.

My experience with this, as a veteran of the military, flavors my experience now. I never have and never will support “senior” people pulling bigger salaries and getting more protection for sub-standard work. That is not an indictment of ALL seniors–that would be preposterous!–but rather, the “few” (or more than that) that truly sour the system. The same holds true for young teachers that should hit the door too…but they are already on “probation” and untenured.

I don’t have the answers, as I stated. I well know that some principals would and do abuse the system. I’m open–as I hope policymakers are–to hearing some real proposals that would introduce–gasp!–fairness into the system.

So, instead of getting your knickers in a twist and casting proverbial stones at me, why not be a part of the solution, instead of clinging to the “old” way (pardon the pun) and contributing to the in-fighting. [And by the way, YOUR ageism is showing...it's just as much ageism to bash the young as it is the old, and your post with rife with it. But that's ok; i'm not offended.]

To ALL readers: what *would* work? What do you guys think would be a fair way of ensuring that the *best* teachers stay in the classroom, despite age, salary, etc. I’m genuinely (despite Mr. A’s myopic views to the contrary) open to ideas. I do NOT think I have the answers, and therefore welcome those with more knowledge and “experience” in this matter to weigh in…you know, those that can see the forest and all, unlike young teachers like me.

IS there a solution? I’ve been on the chopping block every year because I teach high school Reading (not English) which is not a “core” subject, so I’ve been used to this for the last few years…I’m always the first one my admin considers letting go, despite perfect reviews and their genuine liking / appreciation of me and my efforts. Stinks, but what can I do about it? Wish it was different, but I’m not sure how it could ever be “fair” to everyone…

Believe it or not, you are not the first wave of teachers ever threatened with losing jobs. Almost all teachers have gone through it. I know I did. I was the least senior person in my department for about 8 years, so my head was always on the block when budget cuts came. What makes you think you should be immune? You talk of possibly investing 20 years in the system–well, I have already done that, and more. Do you think my reward should be getting ousted in favor of untenured teachers? When you hit your 20th year, will you want the same protection or will you just happily be left to greet shoppers at Walmart as your reward?

One problem in the system is that we have a union, largely made up of young teachers like yourself, who can’t see the forest for the trees. You think you have all the answers, and you won’t realize how few answers you really have until you have some more experience. I’m not trying to convince you–it’s clear you won’t be budged. The ageism in your post says as much, and your protestations of “sarcasm” are absurd.

If you want to secure your job, the way to do it isn’t to oppose senior teachers–it is to join us. We are the ones who understand unionism best because we’ve been part of it the longest. I would most certainly fight for you against any layoffs or concessions even if they benefitted me. I’m not sure that I could say the same for you.

…and as you said, it isn’t like anyone is exactly lining up to unite us, so we’ll have to do it ourselves.

Hopefully, this will happen soon and very soon, despite the fact that Randi W. and the UFT leadership haven’t actually made any real, sincere effort to unite us all.

And I agree, “tenure” or protection from cuts should be based on what is in the best interest of the students / school. If that’s the “senior” teachers staying, then so be it. If it’s a mix of old and young, so be it. No one–no matter the age–should be protected if they are performing in a sub-standard manner…and we ALL know there are plenty of those in our schools. And just saying “the admin would abuse the system to the detriment of the veteran teachers” is not reason enough to protect the detritus. There ARE ways to go about it without hiding our heads in the sand and pretending the situation doesn’t exhist. Luckily, I happen to think the good teachers outweigh the bad.

Also, trying to redirect poor teaching habits back on me (‘hope that’s not Lindsey’s teaching style’) reflects not only your purposeful (and probably widespread) ignorance, it also shows a mean spirit on your part. Hope you don’t treat your poor students that way (this is, once again, sarcasm, if you failed to pick up on it…a thinly veiled reference to your post). My point was to show that ALL hardworking teachers, young and old, deserve to have jobs, but that SOME older teachers demonize younger teachers, when in fact, those younger teachers are often working just as hard or harder than they are. [This trend of "bashing" young teachers might also be present in reverse, and I just haven't witnessed it yet...certainly not on this board or in the teacher's lounge...but it's still possible and would be just as bad.]

The only intelligent, cogent, and RELEVANT thing you added to the discussion was when you said “AGE is not a part of the equation.” With that statement, you and I are in unequivocal agreement. There is NO reason for old to be pitted against young, or vice versa. We are ALL in this together…whether it is someone who stays in the classroom for 2 years or 20, we ALL make a contribution. NYC needs help, but it is possible if we keep the students first and stick together.

~~Lindsey. Iraq Veteran, Proud Career Teacher. Mentor. And a “young” teacher who works her butt off for her students and hopes (probably in vain) that she won’t be one of the first ones cut, just because she is “young”.

We are, indeed, all in this together, and regardless of age we need to fight this. I don’t, however, know where this “new teachers with no credentials” thing came from – I have my BS in elementary education and my MA in childhood education, scored well on all of the state certifying exams, and have continued my education since I began teaching. How that translates to “6 weeks of training” is beyond me. Don’t belittle my education and background just because I’m “new”.

Furthermore, the suggestion that older teachers “treat the students like crap because they can’t relate to them” is offensive. This is an unfounded broad statement that is disgusting and offensive. No age group has a “lock” on student relationships and Lindsey is showing discrimination and a lack of perceptiveness as a colleague and human being.

Further, the idea that veteran teachers draw big salaries and don’t do anything suggests her fundamental misunderstaning of the facts. There is no such thing as a big salary for NYC teachers. We’re damn lucky that we have union that clearly defines and publicly shows what we all can earn and does not depend on some kind of subjective criteria … It seems to me that Lindsey thinks she’s a great teacher and no one with more years of experience could also be a great teacher. A little wisdom goes a long way. As “older teachers” we know that we all survive thanks to that “senior” teacher who offered the lesson, the perspective, and the support to become the great teachers we are today. Collegial respect and collaboration are the pillars of our profession.

Teachers do not “cut and run,” no matter what their age. In any profession, there are those who are successful and thrive at a job and there are those who do not … AGE is not a part of that equation … so let’s drop that issue as divisive and unproductive.

We are all in this together … let’s work together to raise student achievement, support each other, and remain committed to making the NYC school system the best in the world!