Without being sarcastic, I do understand your point. Nevertheless, with your preparatory education and your above the average perception of what true schools ought to be like, you do not take into account what makes a schools is not just teachers, but entire communities at large.

To simplistically believe that a set of teachers can deal with students who have not had parenting and clear expectations at home since they began to reason, is something you will get from the minds of Kleinberg and all other wanna be socially responsible politicians that preach to the public, about the “democratization” of good education and yet, in their back allows profiteers to plunder from public funds to stuff their pockets by the means of so called “charters” and small schools.

Unlike many other countries and societies that are connoisseurs of fine, humanistic education, the US school systems and especially Urban school systems are barely holding together, hobbled by attacks from private interests, a simplistic middle class that gets their opinions from yellow press and still pass judgment of what they do not clearly understand.

Ms. Green did what most people would have done (myself included) and go on-line and look for comments on the question.

But that would be inappropriate as a class assignment because, once again, it is allowing someone to tell the student the answer instead of the students figuring it out for themselves (go on-line or to the library and get a list of U.S. presidents and read the names).

Again: society should not dump these problems on the shoulders of educators just because it is convenient and cheap(er) and then have these same teachers go through a series of PDs to bring them up to standard so they are “adequate” to handle these problems.

See “The Latest Doomed Pedagogical Fad: 21st-Century Skills” in the Washington Post.

Here’s the answer to both his question and the follow-up, why did Obama make the mistake?, via the Associated Press (http://tinyurl.com/dmbnc7):

In addition, Meena Bose, chairwoman of the Center for the Study of the American Presidency at Hofstra University, said Obama erred in his inaugural address when he said 44 Americans have been sworn in as president. She said the number is actually 43, because Grover Cleveland served two nonconsecutive terms – making Cleveland the 22nd and 24th president.

Jen Psaki, a spokeswoman for the Obama White House, didn’t deny the mistake: “Since he’s the 44th president, we thought it would be less confusing to overlook the historical footnote and use 44.”

I come from an immigrant family, and I always learned from my parents that education is the ‘great leveller.’ I could direct my own future if I had a strong education. Not every kid is getting that message at home.

I appreciate your point with the BBC anecdote, which does seem silly. But you say that “teachers do too many things not related to classroom instruction.” Motivating students is clearly related to instruction. Supporting students who are notably NOT self-reliant and helping said students develop that self-reliance–these are things that are integrally related to instruction. In fact, instruction is irrelevant if they’re not happening.

And that’s my bottom line: there are many things that should be happening outside of school and they’re not. Inside school, students should be learning. If they are not learning, then the teaching should be changed so that they do learn. It’s not enough just to say we taught and they didn’t learn. The consequence for our society is huge.

We all know the multiplicity of problems many students are burdened with and then find their way into our classrooms. But it does not necessarily follow that teachers should be designated the ones that have to deal with these problems. Teachers are not trained child psychologists nor social workers nor should they be. They should not have to work through these problems with students in order to get to the point where learning can begin. While it may be convenient (and cheap) for a society to say: “Since all of these children are in one place and at one time (schools), let them handle it (whatever the problem(s) happens to be).”, it is inappropriate to saddle a learning environment (learning community) with issues better handled by trained experts.

On a minor issue (compared to the huge problems American teachers face) a BBC Radio 2 program discussed the question “Should teachers teach students how to cook?” A nutritionist said that since parents either couldn’t or wouldn’t teach their children cooking skills, schools should take on the task. The interviewer replied: “Any teacher listening to this would be in despair.”

Few countries in the world ask teachers to do things better handled by others. In this country we end up asking (demanding?) teachers do too many things not related to classroom instruction.

Ms. McHugh:

In saying that students are responsible for their own learning I am not implying that they should be self taught. Teachers provide direction and focus to a child’s educational development. Teachers also provide tools to assist in the learning process. They promote a learning environment.

But if a teacher can do all of the above (no easy task) then if a student still does not “learn” or make any educational progress, then one should not assume that it is the teacher’s fault. The student, in the end, must take responsibility for their own learning.

An example:

I say to my class: “President Obama made a factual error during his Inaugural Address when he said: ‘Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath.’, when, in fact, forty-three have. Your assignment, for tomorrow, is to explain why, if President Obama is the 44th President, only forty-three persons have taken the presidential oath.”

My task as a teacher is to:

1. Present a problem wherein the student is given a chance to exercise some independent thought.
2. Insure that each member of the class has access to a library or a computer and knows how to use library facilities or knows how to use a computer and a search engine, or both.
3. Be prepared to answer any questions related to the assignment so it is clear in their minds what they have to do.
4. Given them sufficient time to do the assignment.

The rest is up to them. And then maybe we can discuss how they went about answering the question and why President Obama would make such a factual error. I would speculate that he knew what he said was in error.

KitchenSink:

The above assignment could probably be given in a 6th grade classroom.

Thanks for your comments and I appreciate your looking at my website. I would appreciate any comments or contributions you would care to make.

Would any of us disagree that high school students are, by and large, responsible for their own learning? Wouldn’t we all agree that the teacher’s proper role in high school is either repository of information to be transmitted or Socrates to the students’ Plato?

Schooldays, if you are talking about early childhood, then I think we have a problem…

I agree that it’s an important topic to debate–it’s a big issue as schools and teachers are asked to do more and more. I still think that at the heart, we have a philosophical difference. I think teachers (and I count myself among the ranks) need to do more than present material (and focus and direction) to be considered to be successful.

But I have some more pragmatic questions. First, what does bad teaching look like and how does one measure success in teaching? Is outcome irrelevant in measuring success? In other words, if the teacher “taught” but none of the students learned, is it possible to say that teacher is successful?

And I don’t disagree that students *should* take charge of their own learning. But what if they don’t? Do we just disregard those students in our classroom and in our school and in our society? I agree that parents *should* foster good habits, but what if they don’t? In other words, if you walk in to teach your kindergarten class and ChildX is neither motivated nor self-reliant, does that mean you’re excused from moving him academically from where he is to the next level? And if so, who does help ChildX if his parent cannot or does not? What happens to that kid if no teacher is responsible for teaching him the things he should have come in being able to do?

If we are only responsible for teaching students who are excited and ready to learn, that leaves a lot of students who no one is responsible for teaching.

It’s not a black and white issue for me because I see your side too–teachers are asked to do more and more and the students we teach, especially in poverty-stricken neighborhoods, sometimes come woefully unready to learn. But I don’t think the answer is to say that teachers don’t have to be responsible for them. I think part of the answer is to pay teachers more, train them more, give them smaller loads, give them access to more resources, etc. But ultimately, if you’re not moving your students academically forward, then what’s the point of being in the classroom and picking up that (tiny) check at the end of the week?

To state once again: I do not believe it is the teacher’s job to educate the student; a student is in charge of their own education.

The teacher’s job is to provide a focus and direction (and perhaps introduce such academic “tools” necessary to move forward) for learning.

The student takes charge of their own development. The more self-reliant the student is, the easier this is to accomplish. The development of self reliance can begin at a very early age. Parents and other care givers do not have to do everything for the child. They can foster self reliance in very simple ways: teach them to clean up their own room, make their own bed (and let it be if it is not done very well), help set the dinner table, help wash the dishes, help with yard work (if they have one), and so forth. Even a 2 or 3 year old can pick up on this. Teach children to buckle their own seat belt, the ins and outs of public transportation, and on and on and on.

The child then gains confidence that they can, in many ways, manage their own existence. They have learned that they are not totally dependent on others. They have a measure of self reliance and they can bring that with them into an educational system.

“No, I don’t need help. I can do it myself.” are words spoken by some even in kindergarten. So a teacher can give an assignment, present some general direction, and the student is confronted with the task of accomplishing it.

Then if the student says “I don’t get it” (and we have all heard this) it is a plea for help to work their way through something that they cannot manage for themselves, rather than a challenge to the teacher: “I don’t get it and it is your fault.”

I think the “teacher quality” question is complicated by the needs, demands and support offered by a school. I know a teacher who would probably be considered “dazzling” at another school, but didn’t cut the mustard at the school where I work. And another who left my school because she didn’t feel like she was getting supported enough…she ended up at a school that uses curriculum in a very, very different way.

But Tillie I also think you’re right on that just because children aren’t taking responsibility, especially the younger they are, doesn’t mean the teacher isn’t responsible for their learning!

Note that I’m not advocating mass firings, and I also agree with your point about the lack of support and development of teachers. But I don’t think the answer is to lower the bar and bemoan the loss of a self-proclaimed mediocre teacher (sorry, MM, if that’s overstating your situation. I didn’t actually read your blog over time).

Tillie, the amount of training and support(in a traditional setting, I would add; there is no TFA) that a doctor receives before treating you is beyond superlatives. If we valued teachers 1/10 of what we do doctors… Beyond that, doctors don’t see 135 patients a day. Seeing the doctor is voluntary; patients are seeking his/her help. We accept the fact that the doctor can’t save EVERYBODY.

If you are standing in front of the room and your students aren’t learning, you might ask yourself “who the hell is forcing me to use this stupid assessment?”

At one point does a child have the responsibility for his/her own learning? Is that true in pre-K? In 3rd grade? In 7th grade? If a 7 year old does not demonstrate that self-reliance and responsibility, do we just declare that s/he does not deserve an education? Do we expect a teacher to be able to control a classroom and provide a quality environment? Do we expect a teacher to know how to present material in a variety of ways to help all students learn? If a teacher just read the information aloud to students in a chaotic classroom, for example, would we say that the teacher has done his/her job and that if students didn’t get it, it is their fault?

I have thought about these questions, and I would certainly say that as students get older, they have a growing responsibility for their own learning, that part of maturing is developing self-reliance. (And I would say good teachers help students to develop self-reliance–it’s a skill that is taught, not something you’re born with.) But I would say that teachers have an active role in inspiring students, in supporting students, and in instructing students effectively. And ultimately, if you’re up in the front of the classroom doing something but your students aren’t learning, I”m not sure you’re teaching.

And as for MM, again, I’m just taking her word for it when she says she wasn’t effective.